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Tickling vs Pain

drew70 said:
Same old tired rhetoric. If you approve, you're intelligent and enlightened. If you disapprove, your ignorant and judgemental. According to the SM apologists on this forum, disapproval=ignorance. I would love to know what they consider to be so difficult to comprehend. If only they could comprehend that it is indeed possible to understand what it means for a man to beat a woman in a SM context, and *gasp* still disapprove of it. 😱

As I said previously, BDSM doesn't work for me. However, there are many that it does work for. You may think that there's a difference between tickling and BDSM, but they're very similiar in that they create a sensory experience that the top/bottom-ler/lee craves and enjoys. I can't place judgement on anyone in that respect-what turns me on and gives me pleasure is going to be different for someone else.

I have friends and family who would have me committed if they ever found out I was a TMF member. Why do I have to hide my passions/desires from them? Because they're vanilla, close-minded, and judgmental. Everything has to be their way from their point of view. They leave little to no room to work with when it comes to accepting differences in others. Hell, I struggle with it time-to-time myself. But it is something I'm consciously working on. If you would have brought this topic to me 2-3 years ago, my reactions would be as extreme as yours if not worse.

You've spent a lot of time talking about men beating wormen. What about when the women beat the men, hence the dominatrix? There are men from all walks of life, many in very high-powered positions, who utilize the services of female doms.

What about the fact that all of this is VOLUNTARY AND CONSENTUAL? No one is being forced to participate in such activities but they go to every BDSM or tickling gathering that they can. Bottom line is, regardless of my personal opinion, as long as no one has been cohersed or forced, it's between consenting ADULTS. Adults do what they want with their time, even allow themselves to be beaten (or tickled at that matter).

Besides, I haven't seen anyone pro-BDSM attempt to convince anyone of anything. But I do see you attempting to push the issue and force your views on everyone else. If anyone disagrees with you, they're met with statements like the one above.

I'm not trying to jump on you over this because I have problems of my own and it's just not that an important cause for me to engage my time in. But people have their preferences. If you don't agree with the program, then maybe it's time to change the channel.
 
I'll tell you both something. You can talk all you want about all your vast experience and knowlege of BDSM. You can list all the books you've read, all the experts under whom you've "studied." Well, I doubt Redmage would admit to there being a time when he didn't already know everything, but at least Bella does. Bottom line is, none of it means squat. In truth the NAMBLA lawyers make a better case for their perversions than either of you have made for the sport Redmage finds in hurting women. You can intimidate, insult, and sneer all you want, and it will never ever change the fact that it's morally reprehensible for a man to derive pleasure in harming women.


Um, I don't want to know why you're so interested in NAMBLA. I really don't. :ermm:

And while I find it...fascinating... how you can honestly dismiss people's actual experience, research and long term firsthand knowledge of the topic at hand as "squat" (?) I choose not to inquire about the logic there. Better and more articulate folks than myself have tried here and on other forums; a fool is someone who keeps doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome, and today I haven't the strength for such foolishness.

Having said that, I do have a question:

I'm a submissive by nature, however we all know that I switch when the mood strikes (excuse the pun 🙄 ). Along with being a dedicated 'ler, I derive all *kinds* of sport from using a good sized solid oak or maple paddle on folks of both genders, mostly men. 'Hurt' doesn't really do it justice, quite frankly, especially if I have a chance to use a good rattan or lexan cane :firedevil . I've left marks, wounds, some darn fine and colorful knots and bruises, and made several 200 + lb men weep and beg this 4'11 woman for mercy. I've loved every single minute of it. And so have they, I have the gifts and return engagements to prove it :justlips:

Are you going to tell me I'm morally reprehensible? If so, may I ask why?

Bella
 
Okay, fine with me. Let's start with a dictionary definition of "harm" from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.
harm
n

1. Physical or psychological injury or damage.
2. Wrong; evil.
Notice that by definition the concept of harm is linked with wrong and evil. Based on this definition it would not be a great leap to say that to inflict physical or psychological injury or damage is wrong and evil.

However, most of us don't need a dictionary to tell us this. As children we're taught at an early age that it's wrong to hurt people. Bullies in school are shamed rather than lauded. Many of us hated that "psycho" kid that would pull the wings off birds or chop the tails off cats.

As we grow up, this theme is consistantly reinforced in our minds, that hurting people is wrong. From TV shows to movies, cartoons, comic books and novels, we have "heroes" who stop the "bad guys" from harming people. In very few places outside the BDSM community will you find the concept of deliberately inflicting harm as a good thing. The societal norm agrees with the dictionary definition of harm being wrongful or evil inflictions of damage or injury.

Most humans have a psychological protective safety mechanism we refer to as a sense of self-preservation. It's a motivational drive that urges us to go out of our way to avoid harm at all cost. Since self preservation's sole purpose is to keep us alive, it's naturally considered a vital element of a healthy psyche. Conversely, a lack of self-preservation is considered to be a sign of an unhealthy emotional state. For example, when we see somebody on a motorcycle speeding, zipping in and out of traffic while not wearing a helmet we might understandably exclaim, "Look at that crazy mother-fucker!" Another example would be if I confide to a close friend that I'm considering bungee jumping off the Sears Tower, that friend might very well respond with, "Mother-fucker, are you CRAZY??!!" So we can see that it's not uncommon at all to associate a lapse in self preservation as evidence of a damaged psyche.

Now let's consider the players in BDSM pain play. We have the recipient, commonly referred to as the slave, bottom, sub(missive), masochist, etc. These are people who want pain in order to satisfy them sexually. Pain isn't simply a button that can be turned off and on. It is most often achieved in such sessions by having varying degrees of harm inflicted on them, not to exclude cigar burns, brandings, etc.

Since a sense of self preservation steers us away from knowingly harmful circumstances and situations, it's only reasonable to conclude that somebody who deliberately places oneself in harms path has a sense of self preservation that is at best damaged, at worst nonexistant. We've already demonstrated that such a condition speaks of a damaged psyche, or a questionable emotional state. They are psychologically vulnerable at the very least.

Now we come to the other half of the BDSM pain play scenario. The giver, commonly referred to as the Master (God help you if you forget that capital "M"), top, dom(inant), sadist, etc. These are people (mostly men from what I've seen, but certainly not strictly limited to the male gender) who derive satisfaction from inflicting harm on others. Based on what was discussed earlier in this response, a man who embraces sadism has rejected virtually every quality associated with what's traditionally considered to be gentlemanly, fair, compassionate, and considerate.

So here we have this sadist, this man who derives pleasure from harming women. By this very nature he's on shaky moral ground already, but he compounds this character flaw with an even greater one, preying on women who through their damaged sense of self-preservation are particularly vulnerable to such men.

Finally, the BDSM pain sadist completes his plunge through the bowels of human character by cleverly rationalizing his activities as "consensual BDSM pain play." We're just playing, that's all. It's consensual, so it isn't abuse. Furthermore, they denounce anybody who dares criticize as "ignorant" or "without a clue," with an air of pomposity that would make Thurston Howell III appear humble and trite. (Yes, I made up the word, "pomposity." I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most get its intended meaning. )

This is why I believe it's wrong for the TMF to allow and even promote the portrayal of violent erotica as something we in any way, shape or form embrace.


The problem with the above, which is very well written and well thought out but woefully flawed and lacking, is that it 1) dismisses the true definitions of damage and injury, 2) makes WAY too broad a statement about humans and how we feel about 'danger', and 3) ignores the intelligence and rationality of those it attempts to define.

Damage, from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:
Harm or injury to property or a person, resulting in loss of value or the impairment of usefulness.

Even in the intense world of BDSM edgeplay, there simply is no loss of value in any way, and certainly no impairment of usefulness. BDSMmers play hard then go to work on Monday, end of story. Occasionally we wear long sleeves, just like a 'ler who struggled against her cuffs a little too long 😀
The awful, repellent 'harm and damage' that keeps being trotted out for this argument isn't a factor unless something goes horribly wrong, and that secnario is not what's being discussed here. The wrong and evil and bullying mentioned above concern people and non-sentient creatures that don't want to be bullied or have their wings removed. I'm not sure why the issue of adult consent is constantly ignored, given it's importance.

Furthermore, tv and movies and comics are the very places where *many* of us first saw our fantasies played before us, from Ricky spanking Lucy to John Wayne bullying and thrashing naughty Maureen O' Hara. Let's not even mention Cary Grant or James Bond (sigh). The Tall Dark and Dominant male who takes no nonsense and will turn a woman over his knee or toss her over his shoulder in a heart beat has been making women swoon and lesser men jealous for centuries. They killed and harmed almost as many people as the bad guys, just for 'better' reasons, and yet they always got the girl in the end. And they still do :devil: Society most definitely casts a harmful male-one who does things that women don't want them to do-as evil. So do the BDSMmer's. But the man who grabs a girl by the hair to kiss her, throws her on the bed and does things His way because they both know that's how she wants it...heck you can't watch a 007 film without that aspect. Thank goodness 😉

And humans most certainly do NOT go out of our way to avoid harm at all cost, a sense of self-preservation rarely steers us away from a darned thing; we're the most thrill seeking beings on this planet! Nearly everything we do for fun is dangerous as all heck, if you think about it. And you can take fun out of it; just getting into a car every day is asking to get dead, frankly. So is flying in a plane. We simply do our very best to do these things as safely as we can, from wearing a helmet while we hurl ourselves through traffic on motorcycles and seat belts in our cars to having a safety bar in front of us so when the big huge umpteen ton-weighing rollercoaster goes upside down we don't fall out. One of my favorite comedians calls that bar the "you're gonna DIE bar, 'cause if it was safe you wouldn't need it!" Humans are utter adrenaline junkies and we all know it, to deny that is to deny our very natures. That "psychological protective safety mechanism" inspires us to stay alive, but only if we can stay alive while still doing what we want to do. We're a stubborn species :upsidedow .

Now, lets do consider the players of BDSM pain play. Take the bottom/submissive. These are, for the most part though of course there are exceptions, rational and logical human beings who have discovered that they like and need more intense stimulation than other people to be satisfied sexually. Since they have the same sense of self preservation that other rational and logical people have, they find ways to nourish their desires as safely as possible while still having their fun. Safewords, first aid kits kept nearby, attendance of classes and hands-on demonstrations by more experienced players, submissives groups and meetings to discuss various issues and feelings...all of these work together to help these folks do what they want to do with as little harm-harm in its accurate sense-as possible. Far from having a damaged psyche or being psychologically vulnerrable, they're some of the most emotionally sound and 'together' folks you'll meet because they know what they want and how to get it.

Then there are the Tops/Masters/Mistresses. (While there are some pompous ones who who do prey upon women, really need the capital M and enjoy inflicting harm on people who don't want it, I can honestly say they fade out of the Lifestyle pretty quickly because that behavior isn't tolerated and words get around FAST.)

For the purpose of this discussion I'll refer to the men. These men love intense play and very often pain play, and they usually also enjoy the elegance and niceties that go along with the roles discussed here. They are some of the most gentlemanly, kind and considerate males you'll ever meet, considering the ladies with whom they play to be treasures to cherish and the chance to play with them and so trusted a true gift. Yes they enjoy inflicting pain, just as she wants to receive it, but that's a FAR different thing from inflicting 'harm and damage'. He wants to cane her, not ruin her credit. And usually he wants to kiss it and make it better later on, completing the night in a wonderful way.

Doing everything from holding your door and your coat to giving *amazing* aftercare, their 'moral ground' is far firmer than many of the vanilla and non-BDSM guys who wouldn't know how to treat a lady with a manual. They do their best to ensure that their play partner has the best time possible and feels like a Lady the entire time she's with him-what that means depends on them. There is a deep sense of honor here that is *very* important

To say that these men rationalize their activities by saying it's consensual conveniently dismisses the simple fact that it *IS* consensual. And strongly desired. By adult, mature, rational people like myself who are no more damaged than someone who loves to drive fast or ski down a mountain. Or have women tickle him until he's screaming with laughter and hardly knows his own name. Humans seek pleasure, and sometimes it comes from pain-witness the power lifter or the marathon runner. We get our rush in various ways, but to label some of us as having issues because we prefer a flogger to a Harley is wrong. Period.


This is why I believe it's fine for the TMF to allow and even promote the portrayal of intense erotica as something we openly embrace along with our own proclivities.

Bella
 
And humans most certainly do NOT go out of our way to avoid harm at all cost, a sense of self-preservation rarely steers us away from a darned thing; we're the most thrill seeking beings on this planet! Nearly everything we do for fun is dangerous as all heck, if you think about it. And you can take fun out of it; just getting into a car every day is asking to get dead, frankly. So is flying in a plane. We simply do our very best to do these things as safely as we can, from wearing a helmet while we hurl ourselves through traffic on motorcycles and seat belts in our cars to having a safety bar in front of us so when the big huge umpteen ton-weighing rollercoaster goes upside down we don't fall out. One of my favorite comedians calls that bar the "you're gonna DIE bar, 'cause if it was safe you wouldn't need it!" Humans are utter adrenaline junkies and we all know it, to deny that is to deny our very natures. That "psychological protective safety mechanism" inspires us to stay alive, but only if we can stay alive while still doing what we want to do. We're a stubborn species
I think that's kind of broad, don't you? I'm sure there are many thrillseekers who fit that bill, but I don't want them anywhere near me. Give me sane and rational any day of the week!
 
I'm with you, moneybags. I'll let the crazies dive out of the airplanes or bungee jump the Grand Canyon. I think most of us get our thrillseeking from television and video games. Granted, not the best source of exercise in the world, but there's always a safe treadmill available. 😀
 
Jackpot$ said:
I think that's kind of broad, don't you? I'm sure there are many thrillseekers who fit that bill, but I don't want them anywhere near me. Give me sane and rational any day of the week!

Um, no, DREW, not broad at all. You missed my point, DREW. Much of what we do daily or nearly as frequently can be considered dangerous and putting ourselves at risk-driving, flying, etc. We still do these things, we just do them with as many precautions as possible. Are you saying that people who drive, fly and participate in contact sports aren't rational or sane and shouldn't be near you?

Bella
 
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Jackpot$ said:
I think that's kind of broad, don't you? I'm sure there are many thrillseekers who fit that bill, but I don't want them anywhere near me. Give me sane and rational any day of the week!
Drew insists that anyone who willingly ignores their body's pain signals in the pursuit of fun or pleasure must be mentally ill and unable to give informed consent. It's very important that what masochists do can't really be voluntary - because if it is then the whole debate goes away, along with any foundation for moral outrage.

Now that is a broad brush. The problem is it tars a whole lot of people that we'd ordinarily consider fairly sane, including just about all professional athletes, anyone who has ever gotten a tattoo, and even women who get their ears pierced or undergo cosmetic surgery. Unless all those people are insane, it's hard to hang that label on masochists.

bella said:
Um, I don't want to know why you're so interested in NAMBLA. I really don't.
At least the rhetorical reasons are fairly clear: to lump sadomasochism into the same category as pedophilia. Yet in order for that analogy to be relevant here we have to then cast women in the role of hapless children, unable to decide things for themselves.

In theory, the whole foundation of this fuss was supposed to be respect for women.

As this has gone on a number of women have posted on this thread to announce that they are masochists to one degree or another. Those opposing BDSM have had no problems with declaring that these women - all such women - are mentally unfit. They make these judgments over the internet, without meeting those they're labeling, and with no qualifications to assign such labels. It is "obvious," they say. That's pretty remarkable, when you think about it; it approaches the level of religious faith. You can't argue with faith: reason didn't make it, so reason can't change it.
 
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drew70 said:
I'm with you, moneybags. I'll let the crazies dive out of the airplanes or bungee jump the Grand Canyon. I think most of us get our thrillseeking from television and video games. Granted, not the best source of exercise in the world, but there's always a safe treadmill available. 😀


not to get off topic here, but treadmills aren't necessarily safe. i fell off mine once and had several bruises and scrapes because i was flung into the wall. i mean i fell off going 4.0 speed. sooo not true all the time.

now getting back to the subject at hand, i will admit a certain curiosity about pain during play. i wonder if it would turn me on or not. i read stories on the bdsm library about whippings, caning and the like and find it very intriguing because i wonder if i would be able to handle such pain. and if it would be a turn on or not. but have i ever in real life? no because david is vanilla. if i cant get him to tickle me, i sure as hell wouldnt be able to get him to spank or whip me.

i think this subject in all fairness has been talked out enough. i am impressed by what Bella has to say. her posts are well thought out and intelligently written. also however i understand drew's viewpoint as well. but every one is entitled to their own opinion. the thing is to try and be civil about it.

isabeau
 
Redmage said:
Drew insists that anyone who willingly ignores their body's pain signals in the pursuit of fun or pleasure must be mentally ill and unable to give informed consent. It's very important that what masochists do can't really be voluntary - because if it is then the whole debate goes away, along with any foundation for moral outrage.
You're twisting Drew's words into something he never said and clearly never meant. Tell me where he says women can't give consent, hmm? He says that such women are VULNERABLE, he didn't say they were retarded. Is your position so weak and composed of straw you've got to twist his words.

Redmage said:
Now that is a broad brush. The problem is it tars a whole lot of people that we'd ordinarily consider fairly sane, including just about all professional athletes, anyone who has ever gotten a tattoo, and even women who get their ears pierced or undergo cosmetic surgery. Unless all those people are insane, it's hard to hang that label on masochists.
Now you're getting utterly ridiculous. You're saying that any of us who oppose the beating of women by men are opposed to tattoos and piercings?? Look, if you disagree with him, and you obviously do, why not just say so. Why's it so important to twist everything he says into some other meaning? By doing so, you're basically showing everybody that you yourself harbor some guilt in the matter and are frantic to win people to your side for your support.
redmage said:
At least the rhetorical reasons are fairly clear: to lump sadomasochism into the same category as pedophilia. Yet in order for that analogy to be relevant here we have to then cast women in the role of hapless children, unable to decide things for themselves.
No, he's casting them into the role of VICTIMS, not hapless children. Victims of abuse.
redmage said:
In theory, the whole foundation of this fuss was supposed to be respect for women.

As this has gone on a number of women have posted on this thread to announce that they are masochists to one degree or another. Those opposing BDSM have had no problems with declaring that these women - all such women - are mentally unfit.
Yeah, a number of women. That number would be one. Bella.

redmage said:
They make these judgments over the internet, without meeting those they're labeling, and with no qualifications to assign such labels. It is "obvious," they say. That's pretty remarkable, when you think about it; it approaches the level of religious faith. You can't argue with faith: reason didn't make it, so reason can't change it.
Everybody makes judgements over the internet. We do it in real life, so why wouldn't we do it here? You only seem bothered by judgements which call your own actions rightfully into question.

No, Redmage, this transparent attempt of you and Bella to apply the scope of Drew,s comments to atheletes and women the world wide is very sad and pathetic. But what else can you do, I suppose. There is no excuse for abuse, and there never can be.
 
Johnny Ticklish said:
Everybody makes judgements over the internet. We do it in real life, so why wouldn't we do it here? You only seem bothered by judgements which call your own actions rightfully into question.

ok i really have to respond to this. do not speak for everyone please. i do not make judgements over the internet. how can i? i also never judge anyone in real life either. i am too far inperfect myself to ever judge how or why others choose to live their lives. i used to judge somewhat in the past but i have since learned that we are all human. i state opinions but never judge. and if you dont believe that well thats a shame because its the truth. and one thing i am to my detriment is being too honest and open. there i judged myself.

isabeau
 
Judgement doesn't mean condemnation, Isabeau. When you invited Dtrell over for some tickling, you judged him as somebody safe and friendly. Don't let redmage define the terms, honey. A judgement is any decision you make about somebody, good or bad.
 
Johnny Ticklish said:
Judgement doesn't mean condemnation, Isabeau. When you invited Dtrell over for some tickling, you judged him as somebody safe and friendly. Don't let redmage define the terms, honey. A judgement is any decision you make about somebody, good or bad.


o ok thanks i can be rather dense at times. lol. and my iq is supposed to be between 132 and 140 hmmm true judgement doesnt mean condemnation. i get them confused at times.

isabeau
 
You are far from dense, dear lady. The way this thread is spinning out of control, who wouldn't get confused? Hard to believe it all started for an objection to a video that depicts clear and deliberate abuse of a woman by a man. It's unbelievable.
 
Johnny, you're a true gentleman. Thank you for speaking out against abusive victimization and for the private messages of support. Check your PM, love.
 
You're twisting Drew's words into something he never said and clearly never meant. Tell me where he says women can't give consent, hmm? He says that such women are VULNERABLE, he didn't say they were retarded. Is your position so weak and composed of straw you've got to twist his words.

Actually he's not. Drew has stated that most people have a "Fight or flight" impulse for self preservation. He said that anybody who engages in S&M play(or only women who are on the bottom apparently) has Psyche damage or is emotionaly vulnerable. This is indeed be an arguement to suggest that the person who is on the bottom is not capable of making such choices themselves.


Now you're getting utterly ridiculous. You're saying that any of us who oppose the beating of women by men are opposed to tattoos and piercings?? Look, if you disagree with him, and you obviously do, why not just say so. Why's it so important to twist everything he says into some other meaning? By doing so, you're basically showing everybody that you yourself harbor some guilt in the matter and are frantic to win people to your side for your support.

Not in the least Johhny. Red already seems to have the majority of the support here. I admit the tattoos and piercings does seem a little bit extreme for an answer, but how often do people ingage in an activity that could result in there harm? Professional sports is a good example, particulerly sports like boxing, wrestling, and other heavy physical games.


No, he's casting them into the role of VICTIMS, not hapless children. Victims of abuse.

Thing is Johhny, they aren't victims. They are concenting adults of sane minds. Try talking with some of them sometime, you might be surprised.

Yeah, a number of women. That number would be one. Bella.

Actually, many women Johhny. Even if they don't like the pain aspects, they still fall under tickling masochists or sadists.

Everybody makes judgements over the internet. We do it in real life, so why wouldn't we do it here? You only seem bothered by judgements which call your own actions rightfully into question.

No, Redmage, this transparent attempt of you and Bella to apply the scope of Drew,s comments to atheletes and women the world wide is very sad and pathetic. But what else can you do, I suppose. There is no excuse for abuse, and there never can be.

"Sigh" Johhny, could you please show me how he has abused this women?
 
Johnny Ticklish said:
You are far from dense, dear lady. The way this thread is spinning out of control, who wouldn't get confused? Hard to believe it all started for an objection to a video that depicts clear and deliberate abuse of a woman by a man. It's unbelievable.

Was she kidnapped and forced against her will to be beaten by the man, or did she CONSENT for it?

I've stated several times that I have no interest in BDSM. But I'm all for freedom of choice with one's own body. If she (or he) wants to be spanked, caned, or whatever, that's their choice. It's my choice to disagree with it, it's their choice to participate in it. When you're dealing with the issue of consent/choice it's all the same whether it be tickling, BDSM, or any other fetish activity-whatever happens between consenting adults is their business!

No one has yet to address my questions regarding the men who are "beaten" and "abused" by doms. Is it only abuse when it's the woman? Why isn't he considered "vulnerable", a "victim" and "mentally unfit?" A lot of assumptions are being made around here regarding a woman's ability to choose. No one's challenging the same regarding the men.

Some of these comments disturb me because they make me go back pre 1920's when women had no rights at all and assumed basically lesser-than and too stupid to make their own decisions.
 
kis123 said:
No one has yet to address my questions regarding the men who are "beaten" and "abused" by doms. Is it only abuse when it's the woman? Why isn't he considered "vulnerable", a "victim" and "mentally unfit?" A lot of assumptions are being made around here regarding a woman's ability to choose. No one's challenging the same regarding the men.

A good point kis, this isn't about a bdsm anymore..its more about the weakness and vunerablility of a woman. I agree with you a 100%. Men weren't mentioned because some still feel women are the weaker sex. Which I know isn't true, I know women that can take a lot more pain then many men.
 
little eye of newt......uh oh i feel another long, boring,and critical essay is about to fly this way from hocus pocus man. :shake: :shake: :shake:
 
FlockOfSeagulls said:
uh oh i feel another long, boring,and critical essay is about to fly this way from hocus pocus man.
You mean you think I might have to make a long reply to address all the errors in Johnny's post to me? That's a good (if not very challenging) guess, Flock. And may I say that I'm gratified to see you taking such an interest in what I write?

Johnny Ticklish said:
You're twisting Drew's words into something he never said and clearly never meant. Tell me where he says women can't give consent, hmm? He says that such women are VULNERABLE, he didn't say they were retarded.
Unless they're so vulnerable that their ability to give consent is impaired, the argument has no meaning. It's a simple matter: If they're able to give consent, then there is no justification to object to what they freely choose to do. If they are not able to give consent, then they must be mentally impaired.

But you want quotes. Well, that means that I'm going to have to take Drew off ignore again, but anything for you:

drew70 said:
But when a persons want or need for pain escalates into levels that risk damage, that's when I have to draw the line for the "whatever floats your boat" mentality. If such a person actively pursues these dangerous levels of pain, then they have chosen a self destructive lifestyle, and yes, I'm convinced such people do need help.

I think this goes on all the time at BDSM clubs across the nation.
Even you get into the act, Johnny, so I'm surprised you don't remember:
drew70 said:
In short, the pursuit of pain is a much more dangerous venture particularly as the recipient develops resistances and requires more and greater degrees of it. As time goes on the desire for pain begins to conflict with the natural instinct for self-preservation, and if continually fed by participating in harsher bdsm sessions, ultimately wins out. Now we've got somebody who is willing to suffer injury, and risk irreversably harm all in the pursuit of sexual fulfillment. I believe this is what Johnny was referring to, rather callously as "not playing with a full deck."
drew70 said:
Most humans have a psychological protective safety mechanism we refer to as a sense of self-preservation. It's a motivational drive that urges us to go out of our way to avoid harm at all cost. Since self preservation's sole purpose is to keep us alive, it's naturally considered a vital element of a healthy psyche. Conversely, a lack of self-preservation is considered to be a sign of an unhealthy emotional state....So we can see that it's not uncommon at all to associate a lapse in self preservation as evidence of a damaged psyche....

Since a sense of self preservation steers us away from knowingly harmful circumstances and situations, it's only reasonable to conclude that somebody who deliberately places oneself in harms path has a sense of self preservation that is at best damaged, at worst nonexistant. We've already demonstrated that such a condition speaks of a damaged psyche, or a questionable emotional state. They are psychologically vulnerable at the very least (emphasis added)....

So here we have this sadist, this man who derives pleasure from harming women. By this very nature he's on shaky moral ground already, but he compounds this character flaw with an even greater one, preying on women who through their damaged sense of self-preservation are particularly vulnerable to such men.
I'm only about 3/4 of the way through the thread at that point, but I think it's sufficient. Drew (and you) contend that masochistic women are "vulnerable," yes - but only because they're "damaged, unhealthy, in need of help, not playing with a full deck." That's because unless they're so vulnerable that they're impaired, their ability to make adult choices must be respected, and the whole anti-BDSM argument falls apart.

Now you're getting utterly ridiculous. You're saying that any of us who oppose the beating of women by men are opposed to tattoos and piercings??
Nope. I'm saying that if you wish to be logically consistent you have to be opposed to tattoos and piercings. Those are also things that cause pain and even tangible injury, but people still do them for their own pleasure. Therefore if masochists are unable to make informed decisions, then so are those people. At least, they are if they're women - based on the arguments presented here, no one could say that men aren't able to make such choices with clear minds.

However in fact I don't believe that you and yours are opposed to such things. I don't believe you're thinking that clearly.

No, he's casting them into the role of VICTIMS, not hapless children. Victims of abuse.
Johnny, if they can give consent, then they can't be victims - they're doing it of their own free will. The only way they could be victimized in BDSM is if they're unable to make the informed decision to consent. Therefore, the only way the analogy with pedophilia can hold is if women are treated as children.

Basic logic.

Yeah, a number of women. That number would be one. Bella.
Go back and count again. And read more closely, for heaven's sake. Bella joined the discussion in agreement with Mimi, who has also indicated that she enjoys painplay. Isabeau has indicated that she has some interest in trying it. I could probably find others if I went back over all 133 posts. And of course several women have chimed in to say that while it might not be their thing, they can't see why their sisters shouldn't do what they like.

Everybody makes judgements over the internet. We do it in real life, so why wouldn't we do it here? You only seem bothered by judgements which call your own actions rightfully into question.
Wrong again, Johnny. Everyone makes judgments on the net about their own preferences and actions. For example, isabeau made some judgments about whether or not she would wish to meet dtrell. Even then though she didn't base it only on her own online interactions with him. She checked with people who knew him offline as well, to get their input.

Then on the other hand we have folks making judgments about other people that even a professional trained to make such judgments wouldn't try to do over the internet. That's simple foolishness - like trying to determine whether a car has mechanical problems by watching a videotape of the car - and with no training as a mechanic, to boot. And to top it all off these judgments were based purely on circular logic: the assumption that women who choose BDSM must be mentally impaired, because no one else would make such a choice.

No, Johnny, it's bad thinking and straightforward prejudice that I object to.
 
hmmmmmmmm?

dear Redmage

Why do u automatically assume u r the ''BLOWHARD '' to which i am referring to?That is certainly something to ponder now isn`t it.
 
Just to clarify one or two things here. Be advised, I do not lump every woman who participates in SM with the examples I've given. Reading redmage's quotes, I can see how this could be taken from what I've said.

Redmage and Bella have turned this thread into a discussion of a woman's right to choose. We've drifted wayyy off topic here. The examples I gave which Redmage quoted (yes I took him off ignore at the advice of several asking me to respond to him) apply to women and men who choose to receive deliberate injury. In no way does it apply to sports, or even reasonable BDSM activity. I'm almost sorry I stated this because it's served as a rallying cry for the abuse supporters to pull some of you folks in.

I think that anybody looking for injury for the pleasure of the injury has some issues. I'm sorry if that offends anybody else besides Redmage, whom I offer no apology. It's ludicrous to apply this to sports and athletics, because they don't deliberately injure themselves, nor do they derive pleasure from the injury itself.

The focus on the women who chose this was not my making. My focus is on the men who take advantage of such women under the guise of "giving them what they want." Anybody who knows me at all knows I hold women in a very high regard. As Bella stated, I am a tickling sub. I like to be tickled and controlled by women. In my mind, women are the superior gender, although I recognize that in both genders, there are good and bad people. So please don't for a minute buy this crap that I look down on women in any way, shape or form. I know many females both on this forum and off who participate as both doms and subs. I would not presume to tell them what to do, nor do I consider myself in any position to judge women.

But I will tell anybody who asks me, that yes, it is wrong for a man to derive pleasure in injuring a woman, and wronger still to act on that desire. The desire itself speaks of a lack of character so profound, that the embracers of this desire will do anything to divert the discussion from this central issue, to tangents about sports and women's rights.
 
FlockOfSeagulls said:
Why do u automatically assume u r the ''BLOWHARD '' to which i am referring to?That is certainly something to ponder now isn`t it.
LOL! Now you never called me a blowhard, Flock. Don't go putting words in your own mouth.

What's something to ponder is how you seriously expect anyone to believe that "hocus pocus man" refers to anyone but the only poster on the thread with references to magic in his user name. That's like a kid with chocolate all over his face asking why anyone would think he was eating candy. Seriously, Flock, that sort of thing just makes you look dishonest - I'd avoid it if I were you.

Then again if I were you I would have put that Redmage fellow on ignore, as I told him I was doing 😉.
 
Redmage and Bella have turned this thread into a discussion of a woman's right to choose. We've drifted wayyy off topic here. The examples I gave which Redmage quoted (yes I took him off ignore at the advice of several asking me to respond to him) apply to women and men who choose to receive deliberate injury. In no way does it apply to sports, or even reasonable BDSM activity. I'm almost sorry I stated this because it's served as a rallying cry for the abuse supporters to pull some of you folks in.

And what defines Reasonable S&M drew? What you personally feel comfortable with?

The focus on the women who chose this was not my making. My focus is on the men who take advantage of such women under the guise of "giving them what they want."

And so, who would preform these services that the women want, if not people that enjoy it Drew?


But I will tell anybody who asks me, that yes, it is wrong for a man to derive pleasure in injuring a woman, and wronger still to act on that desire. The desire itself speaks of a lack of character so profound, that the embracers of this desire will do anything to divert the discussion from this central issue, to tangents about sports and women's rights.

Not in the least Drew. The people here have given excelent arguements for there cases. Nore has there been any "Lack of charactor" shown. Although i suppose that lack of charactor could be applied to anybody who enjoys tickling, if you think about it.
 
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