Tickling vs Pain

[BellaRisa]

Having a wide range of experience myself with both pain and with tickling, I think I'm as qualified as anybody to make a determination. I stand by my assertions. Those bruises on your sides and knees were caused by more of a lack of finesse on the part of the tickler than anything else. And I don't doubt that one can create dangerous situations through poor preparation and a lack of care. Tickling somebody hanging from a rooftop can certainly be dangerous. These dangers are more the result of the circumstances associated with the tickling than the actual tickling itself.

I'm sure you have experience with pain. I'm not sure you have much real experience with well done BDSM pain play, unless you've done a total 180 in personality since we last spoke. It's something you have to have true knowledge of to speak on. Furthermore, the bruises to which I refer were caused by highly experienced 'lers, some of them from this very forum, as an expected and inevitable result of our style of play; nothing to do with 'poor preparation or a lack of anything. I think at this point folks will agree that I probably know a skilled 'lee when I'm with one; sometimes it simply can't be done the way I like without leaving those marks anymore than one can make an omelet without cracking the eggshell. Since you have no idea of the skill level of those to whom you're referring, on what are you basing those comments, other than the fact that it isn't your personal style of play?

Still pretty mild compared to open wounds, broken bones, bruises, lesions, contusions, concussions, etc.

All of these can certainly, though rarely, be part of edgeplay. All are temporarily damaging but quite manageable with proper pre-session prep. All heal. I personally don't enjoy cuttings, needleplay, cigar play, singletail whips, etc, but my friends do. And they get lesions, wounds, and the rest, and they fully heal and do it again at a later date. These are husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, lawyers and policemen and teachers. Sane, rational people who simply like to play rough in their spare time 😉 .

Many, many people participate in BDSM, sports, and other activities resulting in such things without needing to be 'encouraged to seek help' or needing higher and higher levels until they do irreparable damage. Heck, I have a friend who has such a fragile ankle that she breaks it every single time she skydives or gets off her motorcycle too fast. She still does these things and just deals with hopping around in a cast for a few weeks. Currently I myself have a majorly bruised and dare I say lesioned hindquarter area from a recent Boss-and-Secretary play session with a rather large and intense spanking enthusiast . Then there's my buddy who always knows he's gonna break his pinky in Tae Kwon Do...are you really going to say that my friends and I aren't in control of our faculties or will need more and more intense activity 'til we care more about the play than our safety, just because we feel the broken bones or scarred skin are worth our pleasure, and (gasp) we even kinda enjoy it? If a woman loves being thrusted into so hard that she hits her head on the headboard and gets a concussion on occasion, who are we to say she should give up that orgasm? Since I know myslef and the folks of whom I speak and people like us, I feel comfortable saying that we care far more about living and those we live for than the play. Plus, we all have our individual limits, and we have know when we've reached them. Part of what makes us adults, and our limits being way higher than yours doesn't make us any less sane. Heck, there are those who honestly feel that people who don't play as we do aren't truly living life to it's fullest, tasting sensations as intensely as they could be. I don't know about that, but it does bear contemplation...

Personal observation as well as testimony from virtually hundreds of people online and by snail mail before the internet.

I see.

Having been an actual real-time member and participant of BDSM for nearly a decade I have a hard time with the online and snail mail testimony, and having seen literally thousands of play sessions at this point I'm curious as to how much you've observed that was done by educated members of the BDSM community. Given your distaste for the activities I would be surprised to learn that you're an active member of a BDSM group that educated it's members and teaches and encourages safety and consensual intensity. Are you, and if so how often to you attend parties and events, and what have you seen that was truly done in an unsafe way and the result of the ever-increasing levels you mention?

You say "The BDSM lifestyle," as if there is only one. While I don't doubt that your particular corner of the BDSM community stresses safety and consent, I don't believe either you nor Redmage can assure us this is the standard to which all or even most adhere.

Pardon me 😕

I have to be blunt and say that this is what makes me wonder if you know what you're talking about. Of course I say "BDSM Lifestyle"; that's the *extremely* well known, all-encompassing term for ALL things involved in the myriad activities in the world that fall under the umbrella of BDSM. Surely you knew that. Right?

And excuse me, but my 'particular corner' includes nearly all of the major events and groups in our country including Black Rose, BlackBeat, AFL, OLF, NLA, TES, Shadow Lane, etc. I've traveled to the various groups and events throughout the year since 1998, and met and studied under more than enough of the Old Guard mentors and the New School folks, from Jack Rinella and Molly Devon to Janet Hardy and Dossie Easton and Pat Califia. I don't know about your corner, but mine is basically all of the major BDSM community as a whole along with many of the smaller groups of which it consists. Further, I don't know where you get your informaton, but it doesn't appear to be from actual educated BDSM practitioners. I don't doubt that there are folks in the world that practice our activities poorly. That's true of everything. But I can confidently say that most of us, especially those of us who teach, play, and even work in the Lifestyle do indeed practice well, sanely and consensually. And frankly the only ones complaining are folks who aren't actually involved.

Drew, with all due respect: you're not a fan of BDSM pain play. While I'm sure you've done some sessions at some point, I get the impression that you don't really participate . And why would you since you don't enjoy it. And you're a male submissive who wants to be tickled and controlled by women, you're never going to be truly comfortable with women being submissive and/or painfully topped. That's fine, lots of male subs feel that way though it often takes them a long time to admit it. But I don't understand why you continue to speak on something that you admit you find distasteful and don't 'get'. Just as you used to go on and on and on about how dominant males who 'get off' on being called Sir and bossing women around and 'hurting' them should "go pound sand" despite how many people told you what we like and why, now you're berating consentual pain play and again, issues with how people who don't speak up in favor of your unfounded opinions are 'rationalizing'. I'm sure you'll eventually either understand or at least settle down on this issue too, hopefully sooner than later.

Bella

 

[drew70]

I'm sure you have experience with pain. I'm not sure you have much real experience with well done BDSM pain play, unless you've done a total 180 in personality since we last spoke. It's something you have to have true knowledge of to speak on. Furthermore, the bruises to which I refer were caused by highly experienced 'lers, some of them from this very forum, as an expected and inevitable result of our style of play; nothing to do with 'poor preparation or a lack of anything. It simply can't be done the way I like without leaving those marks anymore than one can make an omelet without cracking the eggsehell. Since you weren't there and have no idea of the skill level of those to whom you're referring, on what are you basing those comments, other than the fact that it isn't your personal style of play?


Why, the same thing on which I base all my comments of course. I'm surprised you even have to ask. Common sense, personal experience, testimony of reliable witnesses. Let me guess. Male ticklers, right? Uh huh. Thought so. Nuff said.

Many, many people participate in BDSM, sports, and other activites resulting in such things without needing to be 'encouraged to seek help' or needing higher and higher levels until they do irreparable damage. Heck, I have a friend who has such a fragile ankle that she breaks it every single time she skydives. She still does it and just deals with hopping around for a few weeks.

Clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed, I'd have to agree.

I have a majorly bruised and dare I say lesioned hindquarter area from a recent Boss-and-Secretary play session with a rather large and intense spanking enthusiast

You should tell him to pick on somebody his own size. Tell him I said so.

Then there's my buddy who always knows he's gonna break his pinky in Tae Kwon Do...

If he's breaking his pinky he's got the wrong teacher. He should try studying under the Dong of Tokyo and the Oriental Kato.

are you really going to say that my friends and I aren't in control of our faculties just because we feel the broken bones or scarred skin are worth our pleasure, and (gasp) we even kinda enjoy it?

I wouldn't start filling out the commitment papers just yet, but I have to admit I've seen more prudent exercises in judgement in my lifetime.

If a woman loves being thrusted into so hard that she hits her head on the headboard and gets a concussion on occasion, who are we to say she should give up that orgasm?

Well, she could pad the headboard. Maybe wear a styrofoam hat even.

Having been an actual real-time member and participant of BDSM for nearly a decade I have a hard time with the online and snail mail testimony, and having seen literally thousands of paly sessions at this point. I'm curious as to how much you've observed that was done by educated members of the BDSM community.

Gee, I must have lost count. Imagine that. But hey, we have something in common. I too have a hard time with online testimony, particularly when I'm asked to use it to replace my own lifetime of experiences and understanding.

Given your distaste for the activities I would be surprised to learn that you're an active member of a BDSM group that educated it's members and teaches and encourages safety and consensual intensity. Are you, and if so how often to you attend parties and events, and what have you seen that was dangerous and the result of the ever-increasing levels you mention?

You're looking for proof. I'm sorry but I didn't happen to take names or get pictures. But just like I wasn't there for your bruiser tickling, you weren't there for my BDSM indoctrination. We'll just have to take each others word for it, I guess.

I have to be blunt and say that this is what makes me wonder if you know what you're talking about. Of course I say "BDSM Lifestyle"; that's the *extremely* well known, all-encompassing term for ALL things involved in the myriad activities in the world that fall under the umbrella of BDSM. Surely you knew that. Right?

I've learned it life it's best not to make presumptions. You seem to share Redmage's condescendance for anybody who refuses to regard BDSM with anything more than a casual interest. Just between you and me, it's not the most endearing of your qualities.

Drew, with all due respect: you're not a fan of BDSM pain play.

I'm curious. What was it that tipped you off?

And you're a male submissive who wants to be tickled and controlled by women, you're never going to be truly comfortable with women being submissive and/or painfully topped. That's fine, lots of male subs feel that way though it often takes them a long time to admit it.

Well then, at least I can take comfort in the fact that I'm ahead of the pack, so to speak; Since I've "admitted" this from day one.

But I don't understand why you continue to speak on something that you admit you find distasteful and don't 'get'.

Probably for the same reason you jumped into this thread, knowing from past experience you'd find my comments distasteful. We're human beings. We feel compelled to express revulsion at that which we find reprehensible. My revulsion is expressed toward guys who take delight in inflicting pain on women. Your revulsion is toward me for expressing my own revulsion.

Just as you used to go on and on and on about how dominant males who 'get off' on being called Sir and bossing women around and 'hurting' them should "go pound sand" despite how many people told you what we like and why

You know, I can't tell you how much it pleases me that you remember this!

now you're berating consentual pain play and again, issues with how people who don't speak up in favor of your unfounded opinions are 'rationalizing'. I'm sure you'll eventually either understand or at least settle down on this issue too, hopefully sooner than later.

I'm sure it'll subside, just like it did before. I'm already growing weary of it myself. That was what, 4 years ago? Hah. Pound sand indeed. The tune may have changed slightly but the message is still the same!

 

[Redmage]

Shadow, consider everything I say below said to you as well. 😉

<i>a) Does the clip in question adhere to the topicality of this forum?</i>
The mods determine what's inappropriate for this forum. When there is a question (like this), someone raises it and they respond. They've already done so for this clip.

Agreed. This question was disposed of way back when I first posted the clip.

<i>b) Do we as a tickling community want the vanilla world to associate us with violent erotica?</i>
You may disagreee, but I don't think many really see this as a danger; it's certainly not cause for alarm. For one, the vanilla world generally doesn't "see us" at all. If they did, many would still call is abnormal freaks and be done with it. Also, there isn't exactly a landslide of these clips coming through tickling forums (that I'm aware of at least).

Agreed again. Moreover, if the vanilla world DID come to associate tickling with "violent erotica" they'd be much, much more likely to do it because of various extreme tickling vids. The one in which Laney was tickled to tearful hysteria comes to mind as one recent example. I'm sure anyone who's been around a while can think of a dozen more.

Not, mind you, that I think any of those clips should be censored either. However if Drew is really concerned about such things then someone ought to let him know that that horse escaped the barn a long time ago.

<i>c) Is violent bdsm abuse or legitimate play?</i>
My succinct reply: Based on this thread, I'd say it's legitimate play to those who can understand and/or appreciate it, and abuse to many who cannot. But, as many have said already, the same goes for tickling whether we want to admit it or not. Examples can be easily found for both.

Yep, that's the hat trick. Those who don't know what BDSM is about tend to see it as abuse. I'm sure their stress over this is real, but they're doing it to themselves.

 

[Redmage]

Still pretty mild compared to open wounds, broken bones, bruises, lesions, contusions, concussions, etc.

All of these can certainly, though rarely, be part of edgeplay. All are temporarily damaging but quite manageable with proper pre-session prep. All heal. I personally don't enjoy cuttings, needleplay, cigar play, singletail whips, etc, but my friends do. And they get lesions, wounds, and the rest, and they fully heal and do it again at a later date. These are husbands and wives, fathers and mothers, lawyers and policemen and teachers. Sane, rational people who simply like to play rough in their spare time 😉 .

A quibble: Broken bones and concussions don't generally come about as part of play. They're likely to be the result of mistakes - such as, for example, tickling someone who wasn't properly secured to a chair and having them tip over and hit their head. In other words such injuries are just as likely in tickling as in BDSM.

Cuts, contusions, and bruises certainly can result from regular BDSM play. By the same token, most people bleed when they get a tattoo, and many common piercings can take months to heal. The lesson there (for Drew and company, not for you, Bella) is that the things he's frantic about in BDSM are just as common in activities that he thinks are perfectly normal. As long as they're accepted by all involved, it's no one else's business.

Personal observation as well as testimony from virtually hundreds of people online and by snail mail before the internet.

I see.

Having been an actual real-time member and participant of BDSM for nearly a decade I have a hard time with the online and snail mail testimony, and having seen literally thousands of play sessions at this point I'm curious as to how much you've observed that was done by educated members of the BDSM community. Given your distaste for the activities I would be surprised to learn that you're an active member of a BDSM group that educated it's members and teaches and encourages safety and consensual intensity. Are you, and if so how often to you attend parties and events, and what have you seen that was truly done in an unsafe way and the result of the ever-increasing levels you mention?

Good question. Considering the blatant errors Drew has consistently made in describing BDSM, I very much doubt that he has made many "personal observations" of the art. And I'd really like to know what could inspire "virtually hundreds" of people to share their stories with him in any form, let alone snail mail. Did he put up a sign? "Send your BDSM horror stories to me! Belief guaranteed!"

Perhaps he meant "hundreds of virtual people."

You say "The BDSM lifestyle," as if there is only one. While I don't doubt that your particular corner of the BDSM community stresses safety and consent, I don't believe either you nor Redmage can assure us this is the standard to which all or even most adhere.

Pardon me 😕

I have to be blunt and say that this is what makes me wonder if you know what you're talking about.

Yeah, this is just getting silly. I had doubts that he knew anything about BDSM from his opening post on this thread, when he declared that the fact that my model was gagged proved there had been no safe signal used in the scene. This just clinches it.

Anyone - and I mean anyone - who spends more than a week in contact with the kink community will witness a discussion of safety and/or consent in some form. These ideas are the bedrock of BDSM. I challenge anyone to find a single BDSM book (non-fiction, of course), organization, or prominent SM player that lacks an understanding of safety and consent.

We debate endlessly just what these ideas mean and how to apply them, but the notion that they're somehow unique to a small corner of the kink community is ludicrous. Anyone who seriously proposes this has invalidated any claim he or she might make to an informed understanding of BDSM.

 

[BellaRisa]

A quibble: Broken bones and concussions don't generally come about as part of play. They're likely to be the result of mistakes - such as, for example, tickling someone who wasn't properly secured to a chair and having them tip over and hit their head. In other words such injuries are just as likely in tickling as in BDSM.

Heya hon,

You're absolutely right, but what I was referring to is edgeplay such as brandings and cigarette and cigar burns, hard whipping and nettle play, back punching, etc, where burns and bruises and wounds and even (mild) contusions and such are expected and prepared for and considered part of the play rather than an injury that was to be avoided. Broken bones and concussions not so much, but the other things mentioned are occasionally the desired effect rather than a consequence

On broken bones: last night my local BDSM group, MORAL (Mid-Ohio Rose And Leather) had our weekly meeting and dinner, and I brought up the subject of what we would feel if one of our friends was into broken bone play of some kind. Frankly we never did reach a decision; the feeling was that while most of us would be kinda put off, we'd need to do *major* research and find out just how permanently damaging their activity was. It was said that it wouldn't be much different than a boxer or wrestler who kept getting his nose broken but chose to keep letting it heal and returning to the ring, no less sane or worrisome if looked after properly...we'll definitely be returning to the discussion

Perhaps he meant "hundreds of virtual people."

Indeed. The chatrooms are filled with such folks who will never venture into real time play in their lifetime but will spew and spout with authority. Sad, really....

Thank you for your intelligent and experienced posts Redmage, it's appreciated by those with a clue. Keep up the good work!

Bella

 

[Redmage]

You're absolutely right, but what I was referring to is edgeplay such as brandings and cigarette and cigar burns, hard whipping and nettle play, back punching, etc, where burns and bruises and wounds and even (mild) contusions and such are expected and prepared for and considered part of the play rather than an injury that was to be avoided. Broken bones and concussions not so much, but the other things mentioned are occasionally the desired effect rather than a consequence

I understood you, Bella. But having seen the way Drew and Co. are reasoning here I decided it'd be best to clarify before they declared triumphantly that you had "admitted" that serious injuries were an expected part of BDSM.

It's unfortunate to need to guard against such foolishness. But one can't pick one's enemies.

last night my local BDSM group, MORAL (Mid-Ohio Rose And Leather) had our weekly meeting and dinner, and I brought up the subject of what we would feel if one of our friends was into broken bone play of some kind. Frankly we never did reach a decision; the feeling was that while most of us would be kinda put off, we'd need to do *major* research and find out just how permanently damaging their activity was. It was said that it wouldn't be much different than a boxer or wrestler who kept getting his nose broken but chose to keep letting it heal and returning to the ring, no less sane or worrisome if looked after properly

My feeling would be that they were venturing beyond where I'm willing to go in play. I'd want to talk with them carefully and determine how clearly they seemed to be thinking. Based on that I'd decided whether I needed to encourage them to find another way to meet their needs, or simply step back and let them chart their own course.

The chatrooms are filled with such folks who will never venture into real time play in their lifetime but will spew and spout with authority.

True. I don't know how it is in Ohio, but here in CA we've learned to spot those who are first venturing into the real-life kink community after "studying" in chat rooms. Symptoms include a self-image bound up in grandiose titles and a poor understanding of personal space and boundaries, as well as an almost total lack of clue about the way kink works when you're dealing with real people and real bodies.

They either learn quickly, or they go back to cyberspace where their shortcomings don't handicap them so badly.

 

[drew70]

I was ready to let this thread die, but somebody just had to throw some more fuel on the flames. So....

So, I guess, a slave spitting out her teeth like bloody Chicklets, having just received a backhand across the face with a ring for not responding up to par with the "Masters" expectations....That's just a "mistake" that can happen just as easily by applying a feather to a foot. uh huh.

And when Redmange is asking his soon to be recipiant of his "loving and caring administrations" whether she wants a visible mark to the wounds, I suppose he's asking her if she wants him to "make a mistake."

Yeah, I'm sure everybody's buying into that.

I'll tell you both something. You can talk all you want about all your vast experience and knowlege of BDSM. You can list all the books you've read, all the experts under whom you've "studied." Well, I doubt Redmage would admit to there being a time when he didn't already know everything, but at least Bella does. Bottom line is, none of it means squat. In truth the NAMBLA lawyers make a better case for their perversions than either of you have made for the sport Redmage finds in hurting women. You can intimidate, insult, and sneer all you want, and it will never ever change the fact that it's morally reprehensible for a man to derive pleasure in harming women. So go ahead. Lets hear some more of how Drew is "forcing his morals" on the tickling community, or "speaking of what he doesn't know," because I'm sure nobody here is tired of that rhetoric.

Redmage talks about how "silly" and "ridiculous" this has gotten. If so, why does he even bother responding to it? If I find a thread that's silly and ridiculous, I move on. For whatever reason, it seems vitial to him to squash and ridicule my and everybody else's objections. I've never seen anybody in such a panic.

 

[BellaRisa]

I understood you, Bella. But having seen the way Drew and Co. are reasoning here I decided it'd be best to clarify before they declared triumphantly that you had "admitted" that serious injuries were an expected part of BDSM. It's unfortunate to need to guard against such foolishness. But one can't pick one's enemies.



I figured you got what I was trying to say, just wasn't sure if I'd expressed myself properly at 1am As for the foolishness, eh...we have no enemies here. Enemies are *worthy* opponents. The unlearned and closed-minded around here are simply as-yet uneducated friends, IMO

Bella

 

[Myriads]

I’ll just take this one bit, so I have a place to start.

So, I guess, a slave spitting out her teeth like bloody Chicklets, having just received a backhand across the face with a ring for not responding up to par with the "Masters" expectations....That's just a "mistake" that can happen just as easily by applying a feather to a foot. uh huh.


Straw man argument. Drew, you are a much better and smarter debater then this.

Previous posters discussed accidents that happen in the course of play. This is taking the first six sigma example that you thought of, and using it as a poor club for your cause. In decades of play I have never seen a ‘mistake’ of this level, and there are some very real reasons you do not and will not. I could explain them, and discuss them. But it would be pointless. Because I’d be shooting at the symptoms of the real issue here, and not the point of this entire debate.

Let’s cut to it:

How much should one persons (or groups) personal opinions on a matter influence the whole of the ‘community’ that a person is involved in.

Here is the opinion that we are faced with: it's morally reprehensible for a man to derive pleasure in harming women

It’s an opinion, and no one can dispute the right to hold that opinion. Or even express it here. I don’t and won’t. This thread is a testimony to that side of things.

The debate begins when there is an attempt to take this opinion and fit it to the community as a form of rule or behavior. And the opposition that Drew has seen has come from the major flaws in trying to take an opinion based idea, and move it into the realm of ‘law’.

Hurt and Pleasure are subjective. They are defined by each individual and have wildly different meanings to everyone.

For Drew it’s clear that they are pretty absolute. Harm seems to equal doing any form of action to another that crosses the minimal pain thresholds (We can argue the exact point we cross the line, but again that’s a digression). If you move beyond that line it’s abuse. If the individual desires more then that base level they have some form of emotional/mental issue that relieves them of their ability to make a consenting choice about what they can do. A male (not a person? Another point we could digress on) who crosses this line is ill, and needs to be punished, and not in a fun way. Further, the sharing/discussion of this behavior presents a threat to the community and should be censored as to not poison the well.

We get our conflict because many here don’t agree with this subjective line of argument, when it is taken from a singular opinion and attempted to be made into a set of rules for a community to live under. It leaves no room for other opinions or views. So people push back, and push back hard.

How is there no room? The argument holds the catch 22 that a person cannot consent to ‘harm’ because if they do, then clearly they are somehow of diminished capacity to make rational choices on the topic. Further, ‘Harm’ is defined by one singular individual. The community is expected to accept this line as THE line. Many argue back on this point with “Why your line?” in all it’s many forms.

And these two points lead to a stalemate.

Why? Anyone arguing against Drew’s opinion, automatically cannot gain any traction as they are not ‘sane’ under his set of definitions. So of course their opinions, experience, and so on can have no weight in making a choice about the matter. They are being protected from themselves by an authority with a clear view, and the compassion to be sure they are kept well from themselves and others who may prey upon them.

This is a fine perspective to apply to non sentient and non sovereign beings. (The dead, animals, and minors) but it’s a patronizing one to drop onto those who are sentient AND sovereign. It’s the great white father argument. “We know better.” “It’s for your own good.” Etc.

The blowback that Drew is seeing are folks who are asserting their sovereign aspects. They are saying: “We will define what is ‘harm’ for ourselves.” We can, and do this, within the legal structures of our communities. Who are you to tell us what that should be?”

Bella and Red have both tried to make the case as to why they see Drew’s argument is a non-starter because of this view. They are saying that his opinion discounts their and others sovereign ability to make choices about their own lives.

That’s the real argument here.

Who gets to say who gets to do what?

And that’s a huge argument that neither side will make much progress in changing the others mind over.

I find the debate over play style and the communities view on all this to be valuable beyond words, and encourage it to continue. Understanding where tickling ‘fits’ into peoples lives, and how it fits into the greater world of sexuality is very important. That’s part of what this forum is for. I think some folk reading this may come to know themselves better for seeing the context of the community they are part of. That’s very good.

The TMF IS a forum for the sharing of tickling media. But it’s also a Community. The issues that community faces are part of why we are here. How OUR community fits into the greater sexual community is an issue that most community members never bump into, but it’s one that plays a big part in all our lives. And that issue guides many of my choices in running our forum.

We are seen as a fetish community by the greater ‘normal’ world. We are lumped in with the spankers, S/m, B&D and trampling folks. We are seen as funny, weird, or as sick as any of them and others. Our community has direct connections to the foot fetish community, the bondage community, and yes, the S & M community. People move between them all, to and from here.

We need to understand and relate to those people. That is why clips like the one Red posted were allowed to stand. It’s why we have a Non-Tickling image forum that is full of images of bare feet. And a silly stuff forum full of jokes and hyperdimensional glowing spheres. And a politics forum, full of debate. It’s makes our views of each other fuller, more rounded.

Those ‘others’ are US. And while this forum will always focus on tickling, there will always be room for the other interests of our communities members. Because we are more then ticklers and ticklees. We are rounded sovereign people who need to see each other as such. And that’s what we are trying to build here. A place where opinions can be voices shared and learned from. A place where opinions will not be shouted down, but discussed. And for the most part this thread is a reflection of that success. Let’s keep at it.

Keep it non-personal.

Drew, tell us why your definitions of ‘harm’ are right. Tell us why others can’t make that call for themselves. Why we should agree. Don’t just state your opinion and expect us to say “Ah! I get it” Teach us. Support your argument.

Red and Bella and others can tell us why their definitions of harm are as they are. Why they hold their views. And why we should believe their side in the same way.

Others can and will add aspects that prompt yet more discussion.

This can have true value.

Onwards...

Myriads

 

[Redmage]

Red and Bella and others can tell us why their definitions of harm are as they are. Why they hold their views. And why we should believe their side in the same way.

In the broadest possible sense, Harm is anything that interferes with the equitable use of a person's free will. I say "equitable" because implicit in the idea is the requirement that this works both ways: no one has the right to use their free choice to interfere with another's. The person attempting to do so forfeits his or her own freedom to act, in that specific instance.

Or to put it another way: everyone's freedom to swing his fist ends at the tip of my nose - assuming I haven't asked for a poke in the schnozz.

In the context of BDSM, this means that if two adults have the ability to make reasoned choices, then anything they choose to do together is and should be respected. Note that "respect" is not the same thing as "agreement." Many people choose to do things that I would not do, so I can't say that I agree with their choices. But I respect their right to choose and will not argue that it was wrong for them to make that choice - my disagreement means only that it would be wrong for ME to make that choice.

My definition of harm comes from things beyond BDSM - that's my basic libertarian principle that people should be left alone to do as they please, so long as no one else has to pay the price for their freedom unwillingly. I think this is the best way to build a free and fair society, so ultimately that's why I think people should embrace this view.

However in this particular case, Myriads, I think what you're really asking is why I think people should embrace my opinion that BDSM is not harmful. That is, those concerned about it claim that it is harmful, so why should anyone accept my opinion that it is not? There are several reasons.

First, if we agree that "harm" revolves around injury to another's freedom and ability to choose, then consensual sex, by definition, cannot be harmful. It is freely offered and freely accepted. And the ability of any person to make such free choices must be taken as given, absent true evidence to the contrary. The opposing argument claims that people involved in BDSM are not free to choose, because anyone who would make such a choice is "obviously" impaired. But this is a circular argument:

"BDSM is harmful."

"Why? It's freely chosen by consenting adults."

"No it isn't. The people who choose BDSM are mentally ill."

"What makes you think that?"

"Because BDSM is harmful, so only a mentally ill person would choose it."

See what I mean? This is not an argument. This is just tail-chasing. Respect for free will is a given, unless there is genuine evidence of impairment. And no genuine, objective evidence exists to show that consensual BDSM is the result of any sort of mental problem. To the contrary, competent mental health practitioners no longer regard sadomasochism as a problem to be treated UNLESS it impairs the individual's ability to function. This can be seen in standard references on psychology and sexuality, and in the existence of the "Kink Aware Professionals" list that I posted a link to earlier.

So, on the face of it, we should accept that consensual BDSM is not harmful simply because there is no true evidence to the contrary. Straw man arguments about violence in the context of a supposedly consensual relationship carry no weight, any more than the existence of rape means that sex is harmful.

But there's more.

BDSM is built around the ideas of respect for free will and basic safety. This can be seen through several lines of evidence: BDSM organizations offer classes in the meaning of consent and in techniques of safe play. Anyone who wishes to do the research can check the websites for such groups and see classes and events listed for themselves. Such classes are well-attended, showing that the larger BDSM community values these principles - they are not flukes or special cases. Likewise the growing library of BDSM books emphasizes consent and safe play. Someone is writing these books, and someone is buying them. Even the most casual examination of publicly available material by and for BDSM players immediately shows how central these ideas are.

Folks don't have to take my word for this. As I say, with even a small amount of research they can see for themselves. But there is still more evidence, even closer to home: Ticklers here on this forum are all familiar with concepts like consent, safewords, and bondage safety.

Where do you think those concepts came from?

The tickling scene is much younger than the BDSM scene. When ticklers began coming together in an organized way and began formulating their own community standards, they adopted many ideas straight from BDSM. The process by which this took place can be seen in the old Usenet newsgroups - again available for anyone who wants to take the time to look.

Many concepts that ticklers take for granted - in fact, the very concepts that BDSM players are here being accused of violating - actually came from BDSM in the first place. The facts of this are publicly available.

A community that is built on these principles simply cannot also be built for the purpose of exploiting vulnerable innocents. So people should accept what Bella, I, and others are saying because we can back it up with evidence that anyone can go out and see for themselves.

Last, but not least, people can see the evidence presented by the very structure of this discussion. Without exception, people who have actually participated in BDSM for a significant period of time are speaking up in support of it. Those opposing, again without exception, either declare that they have not done it or make so many blatant mistakes in their descriptions of it that their claims to experience have to be called into question. That pattern should be clear to anyone reading this thread, and it too speaks to which argument carries the most weight.

 

[drew70]

Drew, tell us why your definitions of ‘harm’ are right. Tell us why others can’t make that call for themselves. Why we should agree. Don’t just state your opinion and expect us to say “Ah! I get it” Teach us. Support your argument.

Okay, fine with me. Let's start with a dictionary definition of "harm" from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

harm
n

1. Physical or psychological injury or damage.
2. Wrong; evil.​

Notice that by definition the concept of harm is linked with wrong and evil. Based on this definition it would not be a great leap to say that to inflict physical or psychological injury or damage is wrong and evil.

However, most of us don't need a dictionary to tell us this. As children we're taught at an early age that it's wrong to hurt people. Bullies in school are shamed rather than lauded. Many of us hated that "psycho" kid that would pull the wings off birds or chop the tails off cats.

As we grow up, this theme is consistantly reinforced in our minds, that hurting people is wrong. From TV shows to movies, cartoons, comic books and novels, we have "heroes" who stop the "bad guys" from harming people. In very few places outside the BDSM community will you find the concept of deliberately inflicting harm as a good thing. The societal norm agrees with the dictionary definition of harm being wrongful or evil inflictions of damage or injury.

Most humans have a psychological protective safety mechanism we refer to as a sense of self-preservation. It's a motivational drive that urges us to go out of our way to avoid harm at all cost. Since self preservation's sole purpose is to keep us alive, it's naturally considered a vital element of a healthy psyche. Conversely, a lack of self-preservation is considered to be a sign of an unhealthy emotional state. For example, when we see somebody on a motorcycle speeding, zipping in and out of traffic while not wearing a helmet we might understandably exclaim, "Look at that crazy mother-fucker!" Another example would be if I confide to a close friend that I'm considering bungee jumping off the Sears Tower, that friend might very well respond with, "Mother-fucker, are you CRAZY??!!" So we can see that it's not uncommon at all to associate a lapse in self preservation as evidence of a damaged psyche.

Now let's consider the players in BDSM pain play. We have the recipient, commonly referred to as the slave, bottom, sub(missive), masochist, etc. These are people who want pain in order to satisfy them sexually. Pain isn't simply a button that can be turned off and on. It is most often achieved in such sessions by having varying degrees of harm inflicted on them, not to exclude cigar burns, brandings, etc.

Since a sense of self preservation steers us away from knowingly harmful circumstances and situations, it's only reasonable to conclude that somebody who deliberately places oneself in harms path has a sense of self preservation that is at best damaged, at worst nonexistant. We've already demonstrated that such a condition speaks of a damaged psyche, or a questionable emotional state. They are psychologically vulnerable at the very least.

Now we come to the other half of the BDSM pain play scenario. The giver, commonly referred to as the Master (God help you if you forget that capital "M"), top, dom(inant), sadist, etc. These are people (mostly men from what I've seen, but certainly not strictly limited to the male gender) who derive satisfaction from inflicting harm on others. Based on what was discussed earlier in this response, a man who embraces sadism has rejected virtually every quality associated with what's traditionally considered to be gentlemanly, fair, compassionate, and considerate.

So here we have this sadist, this man who derives pleasure from harming women. By this very nature he's on shaky moral ground already, but he compounds this character flaw with an even greater one, preying on women who through their damaged sense of self-preservation are particularly vulnerable to such men.

Finally, the BDSM pain sadist completes his plunge through the bowels of human character by cleverly rationalizing his activities as "consensual BDSM pain play." We're just playing, that's all. It's consensual, so it isn't abuse. Furthermore, they denounce anybody who dares criticize as "ignorant" or "without a clue," with an air of pomposity that would make Thurston Howell III appear humble and trite. (Yes, I made up the word, "pomposity." I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most get its intended meaning. 😀 )

This is why I believe it's wrong for the TMF to allow and even promote the portrayal of violent erotica as something we in any way, shape or form embrace.

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

geez... u 2 need to get a room.

 

[drew70]

Go flock yourself

 

[Redmage]

geez... u 2 need to get a room.

I'll take Visuals I Don't Need for $1000, Alex!

What can I tell you, Flock? Myriads asked, I answered. Why did you read?

 

[FlockOfSeagulls]

grow up

all i can say is it must be nice for u 2 to be ''expert`s'' on everything.wonder which 1 of u is on more ''ignore'' lists.

 

[isabeau]

actually drew i think pomposity is a word? seems i heard it somewhere before. and i believe this argument could go on forever and no one will change anyone's mind. its like religion.

isabeau

 

[Knox The Hatter]

Good thread!
Opinion proferred: BDSM is clearly not my cuppa tea. However, Redmage posting that clip, and then explaining the whys and the wherefores of this craft of his, helped me to understand better. I'm sorry that he had to explain all of this under duress...but Ignorance will surely seize its pound of flesh.

There will never be a cure for Ignorance. AIDS? Cancer? Our addiction to Reality Television and our all-enveloping obsession with celebrity worship? Perhaps in our lifetimes. Ignorance? Forget it.

 

[ShadowTklr]

actually drew i think pomposity is a word? seems i heard it somewhere before. and i believe this argument could go on forever and no one will change anyone's mind. its like religion.

isabeau

You're right Mel. Pomposity is definitely a word. Drew has words floating around in his vocabulary drawers that he didn't even know were there?

 

[kis123]

I have been watching this thread "develop" (for lack of a better term) over the last couple of days. I have mixed feelings that after days of thought, choose to express.

I will be the first to tell you that I'm not into BDSM at all. I'm not into anything that causes me any pain and will run as fast and far from it as I can (and that's with two bad knees!). I agree with Drew on some levels because I just don't understand why people would put themselves through such. I cannot understand (with my finite mind) why people would want to inflict this type of pain on themselves. It looks kinda' violent from here.

However, one question keeps popping into my head:

If women and men are volunteering for this relationship and this is not under duress, why not? If it's for you, have at it! It obviously meets some sort of psychological need to have these things done to them. It gives them the release they need and it beats the hell out of the alternatives.

The next question that keeps coming is:

Who am I to tell them what to do with their bodies? As long as they're grown and can make decisions for themselves, it is their business and not mine to judge. Besides, I have a lot of business of my own to mind and have no room to take on anyone else's problems. If any BDSM stepped into my world in the shape it's in right now, they'd run for the "whips and chains", I promise you!! Actually, I could use some relief right about now, but I'm into tickling and not pain.

I've met a couple of folks who are BDSM players. They have jobs, families, houses, and bills just like the rest of us. They're normal people who have kinks and fetishes as many of us do. They're just into something that I am not-plain and simple. Just because I don't "appreciate" their lifestyle doesn't make me better or worse. It's about likes and dislikes, preferences, and what turns a person on-and from what I understand, things are supervised and the subs are taken care of, just like when we ticklephiles have gatherings.

I know enough about BDSM to know that I may not ever get past the "B" part. I don't know enough to stand in their world and condemn its existence and those that play in it.

 

[isabeau]

I have been watching this thread "develop" (for lack of a better term) over the last couple of days. I have mixed feelings that after days of thought, choose to express.

I will be the first to tell you that I'm not into BDSM at all. I'm not into anything that causes me any pain and will run as fast and far from it as I can (and that's with two bad knees!). I agree with Drew on some levels because I just don't understand why people would put themselves through such. I cannot understand (with my finite mind) why people would want to inflict this type of pain on themselves. It looks kinda' violent from here.

However, one question keeps popping into my head:

If women and men are volunteering for this relationship and this is not under duress, why not? If it's for you, have at it! It obviously meets some sort of psychological need to have these things done to them. It gives them the release they need and it beats the hell out of the alternatives.

The next question that keeps coming is:

Who am I to tell them what to do with their bodies? As long as they're grown and can make decisions for themselves, it is their business and not mine to judge. Besides, I have a lot of business of my own to mind and have no room to take on anyone else's problems. If any BDSM stepped into my world in the shape it's in right now, they'd run for the "whips and chains", I promise you!! Actually, I could use some relief right about now, but I'm into tickling and not pain.

I've met a couple of folks who are BDSM players. They have jobs, families, houses, and bills just like the rest of us. They're normal people who have kinks and fetishes as many of us do. They're just into something that I am not-plain and simple. Just because I don't "appreciate" their lifestyle doesn't make me better or worse. It's about likes and dislikes, preferences, and what turns a person on-and from what I understand, things are supervised and the subs are taken care of, just like when we ticklephiles have gatherings.

I know enough about BDSM to know that I may not ever get past the "B" part. I don't know enough to stand in their world and condemn its existence and those that play in it.

bingo thats what i have been trying to say in my rather unadept way. its not up to me to tell others how to play. wtg kis.. lets pretend that is what i said all along lol

isabeau

 

[Redmage]

I've met a couple of folks who are BDSM players. They have jobs, families, houses, and bills just like the rest of us. They're normal people who have kinks and fetishes as many of us do. They're just into something that I am not-plain and simple. Just because I don't "appreciate" their lifestyle doesn't make me better or worse. It's about likes and dislikes, preferences, and what turns a person on-and from what I understand, things are supervised and the subs are taken care of, just like when we ticklephiles have gatherings.

I know enough about BDSM to know that I may not ever get past the "B" part. I don't know enough to stand in their world and condemn its existence and those that play in it.

That's really all anyone can ask. It's certainly all that I would expect. And yanno, there are a few of us with a foot in both worlds - that's why I'm here after all. It's possible that you've even been tickled by someone who was into the other three letters, and never knew it! 😉

 

[drew70]

Same old tired rhetoric. If you approve, you're intelligent and enlightened. If you disapprove, your ignorant and judgemental. According to the SM apologists on this forum, disapproval=ignorance. I would love to know what they consider to be so difficult to comprehend. If only they could comprehend that it is indeed possible to understand what it means for a man to beat a woman in a SM context, and *gasp* still disapprove of it. 😱

 

[BellaRisa]

I will be the first to tell you that I'm not into BDSM at all. I'm not into anything that causes me any pain and will run as fast and far from it as I can (and that's with two bad knees!).
Kis, thank you for your words, your post was thoughtful and wonderful .

Just let me say one quick thing, because I hear similar comments like the above that I took from your post quite a bit:

BDSM stands for B and D = Bondage and Discipline, D/s = Dominance and Submission, and S&M = Sado-Masochism. While I'm sure Kis and others know, I suspect that a lot of folks here aren't aware that BDSM does **not** have to involve pain, mental or physical, of any kind. Zero. In fact I played for several years, and even served a Master for awhile, with no pain involved whatsoever. There are many, many people involved with BDSM who avoid pain play completely, in favor of sensual play (light tickling for instance, silk and satin items, etc) and/or activities that are purely psychological. Lot's of folks primarily into D/s ( this was me for years) never venture into pain of any kind, seeking only sensual pleasures and the satisfaction of serving or being served. There are a ton of collared foot slaves out there who don't get involved with pain ever, I imagine many of them are reding this right now

A good Dominant friend of mine (whom I think will be a 'ler for a video for me this year, yay!) is a japanese rope bondage enthusiast who uses rabbit fur and other really yummy items to make a woman feel absolutely incredible (hell yes I can vouch for this ) and plays for hours without a single bit of discomfort. And yet he still gets us to beg, damn him... 🙄

BDSM covers a *lot* of ground, and pain gets all the press but it isn't as prominent as it's often made out to be. Just wanted to mention that 🙂

Bella

 

[Mimi]

You can disapprove of it all you like. That's certainly your right, and you're free to view the subject as you wish. Just don't try to suggest there is something psychologically wrong with those who do get enjoyment from it. It's our right to like it, just as it's your right to dislike it.

 

[Redmage]

You can disapprove of it all you like. That's certainly your right, and you're free to view the subject as you wish. Just don't try to suggest there is something psychologically wrong with those who do get enjoyment from it. It's our right to like it, just as it's your right to dislike it.

You know, I don't have a problem with people who dislike BDSM. Heck, I dislike Ethiopian food.

But I don't dislike Ethiopians.

Where I draw the line of acceptability is when someone tries to elevate their personal preferences to the level of moral virtue. Saying "someone who likes what I dislike is evil" is, at best, foolish. At worst, it's self-righteous prejudice. And when it's layered on with frankly ignorant nonsense as justification...well, then we have a thread like this one.

If someone dislikes being called ignorant in this context, there's a simple cure: go learn something about your topic before you hold forth with an opinion.

There are folks who've tried something and decided they don't like it. I can respect that. There are those who haven't tried and don't want to. As long as they're honest with themselves, I can even respect that. But then you have the folks who've never tried it, don't like it, and declare that no one else should try it either. I can't respect that at all.