Would this be considered racist?

[Oni Dorei]

I just say a picture at Deviant Art of President Obama. And this person had merged his face with the face of a monkey. I call it racist for obvious reasons, they on the other hand say it's not.

So what does everyone else think?

 

[Fangz]

I would say that it's racist simply because of the terrible history America has of comparing blacks to monkeys. I could see blacks being insulted by this but as the President Of The United States there are gonna be a lot of jokes, comic skits and other shenanigans directed towards President Obama just as they were directed at every other president.

 

[Deadsea7777]

Is racist, comparing blacks or mestizos with "brown Monkeys" is very racist, it was use as an insult in many parts or the world as a way to suggest or to indicate the inferiority of the black people. Is very clear that is very racist.

 

[Iggy pop]

Is racist, comparing blacks or mestizos with "brown Monkeys" is very racist, it was use as an insult in may parts or the world as a way to suggest or to indicate the inferiority of the black people. Is very clear that is very racist.

I have seen many pictures of President Bush pictured as chimpanzee. So I am not sure if it is that clear. I don't think we should automatically jump to the conclusion that it is racist. Now, it could be racist, but it depends on the author intentions. Is the Author portraying Obama as a monkey because he is black or is he portraying Obama as monkey because he personally believes that Obama is an idiot.

 

[Redmage]

I'd have to know more about the context - especially whether or not the poster has other more obviously racist things in his gallery.

It is insensitive at the very least. However I've seen pictures in which George Bush's head was shopped onto a monkey's body - the message was that someone was "making a monkey out of him," or simply that he was stupid. So the intent of the artist is the difference between racism and standard political commentary in a case like this.

 

[WorkInProgress]

It sends out a racist message, I can say that much for certain. For that reason, they should not have it up there, no matter how pure their motives were. But if they take it down amicably, I won't be in favor of calling them any nasty names for the fact that they once had it up.

 

[Iggy pop]

It sends out a racist message, I can say that much for certain. For that reason, they should not have it up there, no matter how pure their motives were. But if they take it down amicably, I won't be in favor of calling them any nasty names for the fact that they once had it up.

I think it sends out a racist message only if you hold racist beliefs yourself.

 

[kis123]

I think it sends out a racist message only if you hold racist beliefs yourself.

Totally disagree

This country is full of racists and the Obama campaign proved it out loud! Comparing any black person to a monkey is thoughtless at best, and bonified racist at worst! It was bad enough that someone drew a cartoon of Obama looking like a stereotypical terrorist. Hey, it was only art and expression right??

Well, whether folks like it or not, Obama's large and in charge for a minimum of the next four (and most likely eight) years! He broke the color barrier in the White House and he'll be in history books forever. For someone to reduce that to a monkey is thoroughly ignorant on their part!

 

[Oni Dorei]

When I saw the picture I thought what a lot of other people probably thought. The racist insults I heard from family members or people at my old school came to mind.

 

[RobAce]

I can see it both ways as a few others do.

The connotations from the racist past this country has, yes indeed the picture of this could be considered racist at worst, in poor taste at best.

However, as Iggy said, there have been numerous (too many to count) morphing pictures, regular pictures, satiric pictures and cartoon depicting Bush as a monkey. But I also saw ones of Papa Bush, and Bill Clinton. So I am more inclined to believe they are just continuing a recent pattern of portraying the President as a monkey.

But this also asks another question....will people have to "tame" their attempts at humor on the incoming and soon to be current president because of race. No one has problems making redneck jokes about Bush, so what jokes are ok and which ones are off limits for Obama?

Rob

 

[kis123]

I can see it both ways as a few others do.

The connotations from the racist past this country has, yes indeed the picture of this could be considered racist at worst, in poor taste at best.

However, as Iggy said, there have been numerous (too many to count) morphing pictures, regular pictures, satiric pictures and cartoon depicting Bush as a monkey. But I also saw ones of Papa Bush, and Bill Clinton. So I am more inclined to believe they are just continuing a recent pattern of portraying the President as a monkey.

But this also asks another question....will people have to "tame" their attempts at humor on the incoming and soon to be current president because of race. No one has problems making redneck jokes about Bush, so what jokes are ok and which ones are off limits for Obama?

Rob

Yes you should tame the jokes if they're based on the color of the man's skin and not his ability to run the country. Bush was depicted as a monkey because he was a Yale "C" student idiot, not because of the color of his skin! The monkey is a horrible symbol of how blacks have been depicted in racist America for decades. No self-respecting artist should've gone there IMO!

When Obama starts making dumb mistakes in running the nation, hell, I'll probably be talking about him like a junkyard dog myself! But you won't hear me making racial jokes, slurs, or pictures of the man.

 

[RobAce]

Yes you should tame the jokes if they're based on the color of the man's skin and not his ability to run the country. Bush was depicted as a monkey because he was a Yale "C" student idiot, not because of the color of his skin!

First off, I do agree that the picture again is in poor taste at best and racist at worst.
Moving on, Having a C average in Yale hardly could classify someone as an idiot.

What about all the redneck jokes about Bush. What about all the addiction jokes.

Is it fair to make fun of a recovering addict? Is it fair to paint other stereotypes like redneck on Bush? They are doing that because of where is from, how he talks, now I understand that making fun of white guy is not the same as making racist jokes about a group that has been oppressed and mistreated for centuries. However, if this society is going to move forward we need to look at everything equally.

When Obama starts making dumb mistakes in running the nation, hell, I'll probably be talking about him like a junkyard dog myself! But you won't hear me making racial jokes, slurs, or pictures of the man.

Well my question is, what jokes will be acceptable. If people make fun of how he talks, it may be seen as racist. If someone makes fun of his hand gestures, it may be seen as racist. If someone makes fun of how much he smiles, it may be seen as racist.
This is my issue. What can be said that no one will view as racist. There is very little according to what I see, and I will never pull any punches when it comes to humor. If someone sees something that I did not mean, then that will be their issue, not mine. But then again....I would not be dumb enough to equal Obama with a monkey...or a penguin, or a zebra, or a killer whale..etc, etc.

Rob

 

[Musicroxmysox]

Yes I would agree that it is very racist and probably the result of an ignorant person.

 

[Redmage]

Yes you should tame the jokes if they're based on the color of the man's skin and not his ability to run the country.

That's the thing: it is not yet established that the joke was based on the fact that Obama is black, rather than on the artist's opinion of his ability to run the country.

In other words, was the picture meant to say "Black men are monkeys" or "The President is a monkey"? One is racist, the other is not, and we can't say which is true based only a rough description of the picture.

Rob was asking, "Will people have to avoid any joke about Obama that might possibly, by any interpretation, be viewed by anyone else as racist, whether that was their intent or not?"

 

[Iggy pop]

That's the thing: it is not yet established that the joke was based on the fact that Obama is black, rather than on the artist's opinion of his ability to run the country.

In other words, was the picture meant to say "Black men are monkeys" or "The President is a monkey"? One is racist, the other is not, and we can't say which is true based only a rough description of the picture.

Rob was asking, "Will people have to avoid any joke about Obama that might possibly, by any interpretation, be viewed by anyone else as racist, whether that was their intent or not?"

I agree. Picturing someone as mokey in and of itself is not racist. People other than those of African decent have been portrayed as monkeys, for example, George Bush. Now, African Americans have been portrayed as monkeys for racist purposes in the past, so I think people are entitled to ask questions to artist. But I think we have gotten to the point where we should not automatically assume that it is racist and get to the point where we actually do ask. We should avoid simple knee jerk reactions.

 

[kis123]

That's the thing: it is not yet established that the joke was based on the fact that Obama is black, rather than on the artist's opinion of his ability to run the country.

In other words, was the picture meant to say "Black men are monkeys" or "The President is a monkey"? One is racist, the other is not, and we can't say which is true based only a rough description of the picture.

Rob was asking, "Will people have to avoid any joke about Obama that might possibly, by any interpretation, be viewed by anyone else as racist, whether that was their intent or not?"

I know EXACTLY what Rob was asking and my answer is still the same. If Obama had actually been in office for a period of time and made some decisions that weren't in our country's best interest, then maybe someone can assume the monkey pic was about something other than his race.

What some of you are failing to see is that the man isn't even in office yet and has no decisions to compare to monkeys and chimpanzees. It's a racist thing, plain and simple. I don't even know why you're debating it since there is no intelligent reasoning behind it.

Keep it about his ability to run the country, not about his race or monkey jokes! Anyone with half a brain knows the monkey jokes don't work in the black race! If I started making crass jokes about whites or superimposed KKK images with Bush's (or any other powerful white man's) image, I'd be run outta' town on the rails and you know it.

 

[Redmage]

I know EXACTLY what Rob was asking and my answer is still the same. If Obama had actually been in office for a period of time and made some decisions that weren't in our country's best interest, then maybe someone can assume the monkey pic was about something other than his race.

You write as though "our country's best interests" were written in letters of fire in the heavens, so all could see and agree on what it meant.

That is not the case. In the real world people can and do form opinions about the best interests of our country, and whether or not any person, elected or not, in office or not, is serving or will ever serve those interests. And they express their opinions about that with no account taken of the subject's race.

In fact, that's why we have elections. This past November many of us went to the polls and expressed our opinions about the ability of John McCain and Barack Obama to serve the nation's interests. We each formed and expressed those opinions even though neither Obama nor McCain had served one single day in the Oval Office. Clearly it's possible to do this; we do it every four years.

Calling Obama a fool by portraying him as a monkey is not racist in and of itself. It's simply expressing the portrayer's opinion that he is a fool. The artist might have had racist intentions, or he might not. Unless you have clairvoyant powers you can't realistically claim to know the artist's intent from nothing more than a rough description of his work. You can, of course, fire off a knee-jerk reaction based on your own emotions, and claim that they represent the way the world really is.

But since that's what you seem to be committed to doing, I don't think it's going to do much good to talk with you about it further. Psychic powers and jumping to conclusions will outshout reason every time, at least in the ears of the shouter.

 

[kis123]

You write as though "our country's best interests" were written in letters of fire in the heavens, so all could see and agree on what it meant.

That is not the case. In the real world people can and do form opinions about the best interests of our country, and whether or not any person, elected or not, in office or not, is serving or will ever serve those interests. And they express their opinions about that with no account taken of the subject's race.

In fact, that's why we have elections. This past November many of us went to the polls and expressed our opinions about the ability of John McCain and Barack Obama to serve the nation's interests. We each formed and expressed those opinions even though neither Obama nor McCain had served one single day in the Oval Office. Clearly it's possible to do this; we do it every four years.

Calling Obama a fool by portraying him as a monkey is not racist in and of itself. It's simply expressing the portrayer's opinion that he is a fool. The artist might have had racist intentions, or he might not. Unless you have clairvoyant powers you can't realistically claim to know the artist's intent from nothing more than a rough description of his work. You can, of course, fire off a knee-jerk reaction based on your own emotions, and claim that they represent the way the world really is.

But since that's what you seem to be committed to doing, I don't think it's going to do much good to talk with you about it further. Psychic powers and jumping to conclusions will outshout reason every time, at least in the ears of the shouter.

Thanks for reminding me that I'm not nearly as eloquent, articulate, and educated as you. I guess I should actually be grateful you took me off your ignore list long enough to take time and respond to me. I should be bowing at your glow of enlightenment.............yeah right

Comparing an unproven black politican to a monkey is a direct hit in the race department whether you like it or not. The man's not even inaugurated into office yet then this "artwork" appears?

It's not even a debatable issue, and hurling well-worded insults at me doesn't change a thing.

 

[RobAce]

If I started making crass jokes about whites or superimposed KKK images with Bush's (or any other powerful white man's) image, I'd be run outta' town on the rails and you know it.

Well no one seemed to be upset when after Bush won in 2000 those very things were done. Bush had not stepped into office when the cocaine jokes, boozer jokes, and redneck jokes were already in full swing. I saw no one defending him or anything. The KKK jokes about Bush hit full swing around Katrina, and no one defended Bush, at least to the degree

Again, I realize that there is a difference, but my question is where is the line.

What some of you are failing to see is that the man isn't even in office yet and has no decisions to compare to monkeys and chimpanzees.

What if the person who made the picture is from Illinois, and is making fun of his votes in the state senate, and the US Senate. What if this person thinks he is making a monkey of himself by selecting Hillary Clinton, and keeping Robert Gates? He has made decisions.

Again, my opinion is that this is tasteless at best and racist at worst.
I am not willing to paint this into a definite corner until I know for sure about all the possibilities.

And again, will there be any jokes that can be said without perceived racial undertones, this question is not directed at kis, it is directed at anyone that would like to answer.

Rob

 

[Cy/MiG]

If it's intented to be racist, then yes it is.

If it's politically motivated, then no.

The line is far too fine though.

I say it's best to avoid said line at all costs.

And if people turn it into a race issue, it says as much about the person objecting as the person who said the statement/took the photo/drew the picture, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Cy/MiG]

Again, I realize that there is a difference, but my question is where is the line.

Rob,

You're heads screwed on straight and your heart's in the right place.

And the questions your asking could be answered a hundred ways by a hundred people and take a hundred pages each.

Best way I could try and put it is:

There is no line because surrounded by it.

 

[kis123]

If it's intented to be racist, then yes it is.

And if people turn it into a race issue, it says as much about the person objecting as the person who said the statement/took the photo/drew the picture, etc, etc, etc.

And exactly what does it say??

Does it say that those of us who have actually suffered at the hands of racists know a duck when it's walking and quacking?

Does it say even though a man of color was elected to the white house that there are people who still struggle with it?

What exactly does it say.....please enlighten me cause I'm all ears.

 

[kis123]

Well no one seemed to be upset when after Bush won in 2000 those very things were done. Bush had not stepped into office when the cocaine jokes, boozer jokes, and redneck jokes were already in full swing. I saw no one defending him or anything. The KKK jokes about Bush hit full swing around Katrina, and no one defended Bush, at least to the degree

Again, I realize that there is a difference, but my question is where is the line.


What if the person who made the picture is from Illinois, and is making fun of his votes in the state senate, and the US Senate. What if this person thinks he is making a monkey of himself by selecting Hillary Clinton, and keeping Robert Gates? He has made decisions.

Again, my opinion is that this is tasteless at best and racist at worst.
I am not willing to paint this into a definite corner until I know for sure about all the possibilities.

And again, will there be any jokes that can be said without perceived racial undertones, this question is not directed at kis, it is directed at anyone that would like to answer.

Rob

We can play with the "what ifs" all day or we can deal with what we have. We have been told a monkey image was merged with Obama's. If you want to piss off the majority of black Americans, combine the image of a monkey with a black man! If it was a stupid attempt at being controversial; the "artist" is an idiot!

What bothers me most is that the only thing the Civil Rights Movement has managed to do is to get the signs down; it doesn't correct the condition of the heart that makes the racist in the first place. Now they just get smarter and use the Constitution and the Bill or Rights to get away with their nonsense.

 

[Cy/MiG]

And exactly what does it say??

Does it say that those of us who have actually suffered at the hands of racists know a duck when it's walking and quacking?

Does it say even though a man of color was elected to the white house that there are people who still struggle with it?

What exactly does it say.....please enlighten me cause I'm all ears.

I'm saying sometimes people will FIND reasons to be offended.

In this case, there is a legitimate gripe.

But as Rob asked:

Where is the line?

Sooner or later someone will say/do/write/draw something that SOMEONE will be offended by (even if its a stretch) and it will turn into something more than it should be.

My response was directed more at Robs remarks/questions than anything else. Please don't take it personally.

 

[kis123]

I'm saying sometimes people will FIND reasons to be offended.

In this case, there is a legitimate gripe.

But as Rob asked:

Where is the line?

Sooner or later someone will say/do/write/draw something that SOMEONE will be offended by (even if its a stretch) and it will turn into something more than it should be.

My response was directed more at Robs remarks/questions than anything else. Please don't take it personally.

Regardless of what anyone in this thread thinks, I am NOT taking it personally. I'm giving an opinion like anyone else, but I seem to be taking the biggest hits. Well I'm used to it and as long as I give my opinion on hot topics like this people are going to think as they choose (especially those who have no real life experience with the subject of racism).

If someone doesn't want to be perceived as racist, simply don't go there! Don't make pictures of monkeys and relate to anyone black! Don't make "step-in-fechit" goes to Washington jokes! Don't go around saying "he's okay, he's only HALF BLACK" and not expect someone to call "you" on it!

Wanna' know where the line is? Make a commentary based on someone's race and you'll find the line every time.