Would this be considered racist?

[TheTenaciousJ]

So does Dick Cheney.

Redmage you have absolutley no idea what your talking about. That little comment just proves it. This was obviously a racist comment, your just... I don't know how to put it... Your wrong. I guess that's the best way to say it. Your wrong.

 

[BellaRisa]

So does Dick Cheney.

And Mick Jagger has huge lips, that doesn't mean I wouldn't consider a 'joke' about Obama having big lips to be rather racist-it's the history of the comment that gives it the sting. If you live under a rock and you somehow honestly don't know that comparing a person of color to a monkey is considered racist and in extremely poor taste and has been for a very long time, then I imagine one can say that such a cartoon is horribly tacky but not truly racist. Having said that, my point will continue to be that since people of color have been compared to monkeys for a long time and are VERY sensitive to such, it's better to leave such comparisons alone and use something else as your humor vehicle.

 

[TheTenaciousJ]

It's like if I shouted the 'N' word at the top of my lungs and quickly said 'BUT I'M NOT RACIST' I doubt anyones going to be convinced of that or think. "Well it depends on his intention."

 

[Artoo]

Why? In that case it's simply a statement of the author's opinions about how Obama WILL do in office. We all registered similar opinions when we voted for him or against him last month, and that wasn't presumptuous.

I forget, of course, that you Americans have had a lot more interaction with Obama than the international community.

 

[kis123]

It's like if I shouted the 'N' word at the top of my lungs and quickly said 'BUT I'M NOT RACIST' I doubt anyones going to be convinced of that or think. "Well it depends on his intention."

I consider this as the winner of the "short yet profund" statement contest (provided one existed). At best, the guy is an idiot, at worst, he's a racist idiot. Either way, it was bad judgement on his part.

*exclamation points reduced per bella*

 

[BellaRisa]

It's like if I shouted the 'N' word at the top of my lungs and quickly said 'BUT I'M NOT RACIST' I doubt anyones going to be convinced of that or think. "Well it depends on his intention."

 

[jaba]

Insensitivity. A common problem, unfortunately, but still a long way from racism.

I agree with much of Red’s sentiments here in this post as well as some of the others he has posted here. But I believe the historical racial inferences suggested by such art denotes poor taste and a racial insensitivity that I cant believe an intelligent artist would not forsee.

And speaking to the broader topic of Obama and racism, although Red and I disagree on some issues, I place more stock in Red’s stance than I do in the words of the candidate Red supported for president.

You want to see undeniable racism?

Obama’s 20 year pastor, rev Wright attended the Million Man March rally with his son, and Wright described it as "a once in a lifetime, amazing experience.

When a number of prominent African Americans counseled fellow blacks to boycott the demonstration because of Farrakhan's well-documented history of hateful rhetoric, Wright derided those critics as "'Negro' leaders,"[9] "'colored' leaders," "Oreos," and "house niggras"[10] whose most noteworthy trait was their contemptible "Uncle Tomism."[11]

"There are a whole boat load of 'darkies' who think in white supremacist terms," added Wright. "… Some 'darkies' think white women are superior to black women…. Some 'darkies' think white lawyers are superior to black lawyers. Some 'darkies' think white pastors are better than black pastors. There are a whole boatload of 'darkies' who think anything white and everyone white is better than whatever it is black people have."[12]

Those words used to describe black men, in my opinion, are undeniably, unequivocally racist, and the fact that Obama would have us believe that Obama (a) never heard such sentiments from Obama’s self acknowledged “spiritual advisor” Wright in a 20 year relationship where he sat in the pews of that church, and which included the time of the million Man march, or (b) never knew his 20 year pastor held those racist sentiments, is inconceivable to me, and tells me more about Obama than any of his articulate words ever could. Most decent people of ALL races would have jettisoned a relationship with such a racist individual years ago, and the fact that Obama did nothing until it became too politically hot for him to do nothing, speaks volumes.

 

[BellaRisa]

I agree with much of Red’s sentiments here in this post as well as some of the others he has posted here. But I believe the historical racial inferences suggested by such art denotes poor taste and a racial insensitivity that I cant believe an intelligent artist would not forsee.

And speaking to the broader topic of Obama and racism, although Red and I disagree on some issues, I place more stock in Red’s stance than I do in the words of the candidate Red supported for president.

You want to see undeniable racism?


Those words used to describe black men, in my opinion, are undeniably, unequivocally racist, and the fact that Obama would have us believe that Obama (a) never heard such sentiments from Obama’s self acknowledged “spiritual advisor” Wright in a 20 year relationship where he sat in the pews of that church, and which included the time of the million Man march, or (b) never knew his 20 year pastor held those racist sentiments, is inconceivable to me, and tells me more about Obama than any of his articulate words ever could. Most decent people of ALL races would have jettisoned a relationship with such a racist individual years ago, and the fact that Obama did nothing until it became too politically hot for him to do nothing, speaks volumes.

Ok, two things:

A) While I would never have used those terms I do understand the very valid points Wright was making having grown up in the Black Community, and

B) You know that this has little to do with the current conversation, right?

 

[BlackestLily]

B) You know that this has little to do with the current conversation, right?

Didn't Bill Cosby express similar sentiments to the Reverend...? (In less crass terms.)

Sometimes I think wee bits of political viewpoint always manage to slip in to those hot button issues.

 

[BellaRisa]

Didn't Bill Cosby express similar sentiments to the Reverend...? (In less crass terms.)

Yup, and I've had many discussions about Cosby's views over the last few yrs as well. I have my own ideas, and while I'd express them less explosively and controversially I agree with much of what both Cosby and Wright have said. But MEANWHILE, *this* convo is about the use of a monkey's image regarding the president-elect who's a man of color, and how that's perceived. I'd rather it didn't dissolve and morph into what Obama has or hasn't acknowledged from Wright's speeches.

 

[BlackestLily]

Yup, and I've had many discussions about Cosby's views over the last few yrs as well. I have my own ideas, and while I'd express them less explosively and controversially I agree with much of what both Cosby and Wright have said. But MEANWHILE, *this* convo is about the use of a monkey's image regarding the president-elect who's a man of color, and how that's perceived. I'd rather it didn't dissolve and morph into what Obama has or hasn't acknowledged from Wright's speeches.

Yes, that's why I threw the political comment in. Somehow things like that will always creep in when someone has something on their mind that needs out and finds a seemingly good place to store it. Fitting the circle into the oval hole. Looks like it should...but it shouldn't.

 

[jaba]

Ok, two things:

A) While I would never have used those terms I do understand the very valid points Wright was making having grown up in the Black Community, and

B) You know that this has little to do with the current conversation, right?

A) I know african americans who grew up in the african american community, and they neither understand nor agree with Wrights sentiments. The black community is not some monolithic group of one belief, and the black americans who dont happen to agree with wright are the one's wright was referring to as "darkies" and "house niggras", and his points are offensive and racist, in my opinion...a klansman can make a "valid and understandable" point, it doesnt make it right, and it can still be racist.


B) In my post, I gave my opinion on the artists work, and I gave opinion on what I consider racist.

My opinion has little to do with the conversation at hand, or is my opinion content you happen to disagree with?

 

[BellaRisa]

A) I know african americans who grew up in the african american community, and they neither understand nor agree with Wrights sentiments. The black community is not some monolithic group of one belief, and the black americans who dont happen to agree with wright are the one's wright was referring to as "darkies" and "house niggras", and his points are offensive and racist, in my opinion...a klansman can make a "valid and understandable" point, it doesnt make it right, and it can still be racist.


B) In my post, I gave my opinion on the artists work, and I gave opinion on what I consider racist.

My opinion has little to do with the conversation at hand, or is my opinion content you happen to disagree with?

Thank you for explaining the Black Community to me. I was uncertain how it works 😀

Meanwhile, of course your opinion matters. I would just prefer it if you discussed your opinion on the current topic, rather than using it as a springboard to insult Obama's behavior regarding Wright's comments and attitudes, which I don't believe have a place in this conversation.

 

[jaba]

Thank you for explaining the Black Community to me. I was uncertain how it works 😀

well thank you for your insight on your experience with the black community, although I fail to see its relevance to either my post, or this thread....but youre the moderator, so I guess your recitation of your black experience matters wherever you decide to post it. 🙂

Meanwhile, of course your opinion matters. I would just prefer it if you discussed your opinion on the current topic, rather than using it as a springboard to insult Obama's behavior regarding Wright's comments and attitudes, which I don't believe have a place in this conversation.

ok Bella...I will leave you to respond to posts on Bill Cosby, or anything else in this thread that you agree with and deem relevant....

 

[Cy/MiG]

It's like if I shouted the 'N' word at the top of my lungs and quickly said 'BUT I'M NOT RACIST' I doubt anyones going to be convinced of that or think. "Well it depends on his intention."

Actually, it's more like if you shouted 'What's up, Brotha?' at the top of your lungs.

Whether or not the picture is racist, I think most folks would agree the artist shouldn't have 'taken the risk', opened himself up to criticism and isn't very bright.

And I'm gently paraphrasing.

 

[BellaRisa]

well thank you for your insight on your experience with the black community, although I fail to see its relevance to either my post, or this thread....but youre the moderator, so I guess your recitation of your black experience matters wherever you decide to post it. 🙂



ok Bella...I will leave you to respond to posts on Bill Cosby, or anything else in this thread that you agree with and deem relevant....

Now what does my being a moderator have to do with anything? Lord, do I get tired of people mumbling "well, you're a moderator" whenever they disagree with one of us...

If you notice, I briefly responded to the other member and then asked that we all keep to the topic at hand. I'd have asked for that long before I was a mod. Which maybe why Jeff asked me to be one, hmmm... Meanwhile my mention of being raised in the black community was completely relevant because I feel it gives one a different POV regarding what feels like racism and what doesn't. I can't imagine you would argue that, though having just been informed that you are also a person of color I have no idea 🙂

 

[trace1984]

hmm

it depends on the creator if they ment it that way or not and how every single person takes it,, personally i dont take it as rasict i think its funny,,,,

 

[jaba]

Now what does my being a moderator have to do with anything? Lord, do I get tired of people mumbling "well, you're a moderator" whenever they disagree with one of us...

If you notice, I briefly responded to the other member and then asked that we all keep to the topic at hand. I'd have asked for that long before I was a mod. Which maybe why Jeff asked me to be one, hmmm... Meanwhile my mention of being raised in the black community was completely relevant because I feel it gives one a different POV regarding what feels like racism and what doesn't. I can't imagine you would argue that, though having just been informed that you are also a person of color I have no idea 🙂

I will leave the authors of these posts anonymous, because they are not the issue here, and they both have insightful opinion on a wide variety of topics…..and anyone can scan this thread and discern the authors anyway….

Well no one seemed to be upset when after Bush won in 2000 those very things were done. Bush had not stepped into office when the cocaine jokes, boozer jokes, and redneck jokes were already in full swing. I saw no one defending him or anything. The KKK jokes about Bush hit full swing around Katrina, and no one defended Bush, at least to the degree


And again, will there be any jokes that can be said without perceived racial undertones, this question is not directed at kis, it is directed at anyone that would like to answer.

What bothers me most is that the only thing the Civil Rights Movement has managed to do is to get the signs down; it doesn't correct the condition of the heart that makes the racist in the first place. Now they just get smarter and use the Constitution and the Bill or Rights to get away with their nonsense.

It seems even giving him a compliment is dangerous. A DJ in my area said "Damn, Obama knows more words than Noah Webster", and the company suspended him for 2 days after calls of him implying that he was shocked to see a Black man know big words and he was being racist, and that was why he made the joke, when in fact the DJ was black, a democrat and in fact campaigned here in Athens for him.

So, this is my fear. Someone that can not be made fun of, because if you do someone will see something you did not intend, and you will be branded because of it.

So you apparently have no problem with a thread “devolving” into discussion about racist redneck bush jokes, or jokes with racists undertones, or the Civil rights movement and the Bill of Rights, yet you feel a burning necessity to highlight what you perceive to be the irrelevance of a portion of my post, because the content irritates you.

I gave my opinion on the thread topic, and my opinion on racism in general as it pertains to obama, just as have others here on this thread.

You can disagree with the content of my posts as is your right, but I won't allow you to insult my intelligence in the process, Bella….

when you can explain either the relevance of the civil rights movement or noah webster to this thread, or explain why you had no problem with the partial content of those posts, i'd be interested in hearing the rationale.

 

[kis123]

So you apparently have no problem with a thread “devolving” into discussion about racist redneck bush jokes, or jokes with racists undertones, or the Civil rights movement and the Bill of Rights, yet you feel a burning necessity to highlight what you perceive to be the irrelevance of a portion of my post, because the content irritates you.

I gave my opinion on the thread topic, and my opinion on racism in general as it pertains to obama, just as have others here on this thread.

You can disagree with the content of my posts as is your right, but I won't allow you to insult my intelligence in the process, Bella….

when you can explain either the relevance of the civil rights movement or noah webster to this thread, or explain why you had no problem with the partial content of those posts, i'd be interested in hearing the rationale.

I'll be more than happy to defend my comment about the Civil Rights Movement jaba........I don't throw the rock then hide my hand. It was more of a "thinking out loud" comment than anything else. It also did coincide with my feelings about the OP and the subject matter of the thread.

It's also a comment I use regularly when the nasty subject of racism comes up. I wish it didn't come up so often, but I'd rather know what's in the hearts and minds of people than to pretend touchy subject matters don't exist. The more these things are brought front and center, the more people are educated and informed IMO.

I honestly did think my comment was within the subject of the OP; although I still feel that way, my apologies if anyone was detracted from the ORIGINAL SUBJECT MATTER because of it.

 

[Redmage]

Redmage you have absolutley no idea what your talking about. That little comment just proves it. This was obviously a racist comment, your just... I don't know how to put it... Your wrong. I guess that's the best way to say it. Your wrong.

Eloquently argued.

 

[Redmage]

If you live under a rock and you somehow honestly don't know that comparing a person of color to a monkey is considered racist and in extremely poor taste and has been for a very long time, then I imagine one can say that such a cartoon is horribly tacky but not truly racist. Having said that, my point will continue to be that since people of color have been compared to monkeys for a long time and are VERY sensitive to such, it's better to leave such comparisons alone and use something else as your humor vehicle.

Perhaps. However I don't think even Obama would want humorists and commentators to pass everything they write about him to "sensitivity editors" in order to make sure that nothing in there offers any chance of offending even the most delicate viewers. At some point you simply have to give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

But if someone does happen to innocently transgress, his offense is at worst being clueless. Calling that person a racist would not be just.

Let me put it this way: Do you want commentators and humorists to treat Barack Obama just as they would any other President? Or not?

 

[kis123]

But if someone does happen to innocently transgress, his offense is at worst being clueless. Calling that person a racist would not be just.

There is a quantum leap between an innocent transgression and a blatent, stupid, and societally ignorant display in the name of art and so-called controversy.

You've lived on this earth long enough to know that images of monkeys and black people mix similarly to oil and water! If the artist didn't intend to offend, he must have been raised in a cave to do something this crass and thoughtless.

Simply put IMO, it's always not the expressed but the implied that'll get folks into trouble. Why even go there at all?

For all I know, this guy could love people of all races and doesn't have a racist bone in his body. But he makes himself look really bad in front of non-whites. Even some of the white members here aren't too happy about it. But the OP's question was could it be considered racist? Based solely on what information we have available, not the artist's "intentions", one can't help but to CONSIDER it racist. Whether it is or isn't we'll never know.

 

[Soda Bobinski]

I've got my own thoughts about all this ... especially after seeing the actual pic & comments in the dude's gallery ... but I'll hold off on those for a bit.

I do have a question , though. Has anyone stopped to consider that the artist of this piece may be ... just maybe ... an African American , himself?

After reading that question , you all might think I'm a bit crazy , but bear w/me for a sec.

When creating a piece , an artist can have a variety of goals he or she would like to achieve w/it. One of those aims would be to "force" society to confront an aspect of itself ... many times , through the use of highly controversial imagery ... while at the same time , there may be a hidden/dual meaning to the piece.

When viewing this picture , the first thing that most everyone assumes is that some white guy did it & that he is either racist , ignorant , or insensitive ... or all of the above. This may very well be the case ... but what if it's not?

What if the intent of this piece was to make everyone do what it ultimately did? ... to make us conclude that , based on the imagery , it must be a white person behind this piece. Why? ... because only a white person would be racist enough to merge an image of a monkey w/that of a black person. Forcing us to conclude what? ... that only white people are capable of racism?

Heck ... never mind the intent. That's what this piece did accomplish.

W/o even giving it a second though , most of us immediately prejudged & assumed that the artist is white ( C'mon! ... you know you did ). Should we have? Maybe ... maybe not. But I thought that making adverse opinions about people w/o having sufficient knowledge about them was something that we , as a society , tried to steer away from?

The only thing we "know" about this artist is that he is male ( at least , that's what it says in his profile ). Why do we automatically think that he is white? He may very well be white , but what does that say about us? ... that we came to a conclusion on this person's race because of the "racist" image he posted on his site? Why do we immediately think that if it's an offensive image or an offensive anything towards a minority group , that it is someone who is white that is behind it?

Stop ... be honest w/yourself & for a moment , consider the artist to be African American. Would you still feel that the picture is from someone who is a racist? It may still be offensive , but if it was a black artist who is behind this piece , does the "meaning" or intent of the pic change for you?

I don't know about you guys , but I kinda find that fascinating that it's "okay" to do that. As long as it's a white person , it's acceptable to asperse a negative connotation on him or her. Or maybe a better way to put it ... if it's racist or offensive to a minority group , then assume it's coming from a white person ... until proven otherwise.


So , having said all that ... do I think that the artist of this piece is white? Yeah ... probably.

Do I think that the artist is racist , despite his claims to the contrary? Yes.

In believing these to be true , am I , a white guy , falling into the same "trap" as everyone else in automatically assuming that the bad , racist picture was created by a Caucasian? Yep ... I guess so.


I think we'd all like to tell ourselves that it is "common sense" & our life experiences that helped lead us to these conclusions , but is that really the case? Aren't we all , justifiably so or not , prejudiced to a certain extent? How does that sit w/you?

Regardless of what the artist was trying to do or say in creating this piece , he did manage to accomplish something. He's forced us to confront some of those prejudices.

The kicker is ... I'm pretty sure it was done unwittingly.

 

[Deadsea7777]

Stop ... be honest w/yourself & for a moment , consider the artist to be African American. Would you still feel that the picture is from someone who is a racist? It may still be offensive , but if it was a black artist who is behind this piece , does the "meaning" or intent of the pic change for you?

Of course it changes!, is like a Jew making a joke of a jew going into the gas chambers, being the victim somehow make it less shocking, if it is done by a german is horrible because they open the gas line to kill. It all boil down to which side of the frying pan you are.

If a sheep pick up a wolf skin and dress up in it, she could not be surprised if from distance the rest of the sheep thought she was a wolf, because she looked and smelled like a wolf. So is a good guess that is a wolf.

If you put a picture in the web and nothing else, them "from distance" people will make a judgment with whatever information they got. And notice that most if not all the post make room for him not to be a racist, just an idiotic sheep in a wolf skin.

 

[TheTenaciousJ]

Eloquently argued.

Thank you Redmage.

Too bad your not doing so well on your end.