Young adults and being sexually responsible [slight rant]

[chicago]

In a perfect world, sexual irresponsibility and abortion would be mutually exclusive. If you don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but I wouldn't necessarily say that it's "not what it's really about."

I meant, it's not what I started this thread for. There are a million threads on this forum about abortion. And you can go there to discuss it. I just feel that debate is played out and I don't want that to ruin this discussion.

I'm pro-choice and I'm okay with someone using abortion as birth control, as long as it's safe.

Using abortion as a form a birth control is not only stupid, it's not safe. After about 3 abortions, a woman's chances of being able to have kids decreases dramatically.

 

[Midnight Circus]

I meant, it's not what I started this thread for. There are a million threads on this forum about abortion. And you can go there to discuss it. I just feel that debate is played out and I don't want that to ruin this discussion.

*shrugs* Just saying that they're not mutually exclusive ideas, is all. But, hey, it's your call, of course.

At any rate, I agree that responsibility is not our forte as a generation.

 

[Icycle]

That's one problem with the morning after pill, IMO. It's an ever-present mulligan. No one has to grow up and take responsibility because, hey, you can just flush the "problem" out of your system. Brilliant.

The morning after pill only helps if the problem you are trying to avoid is an unwanted pregnancy. It doesn't help at all in avoid HIV.

Adolecents and young adults are going to have sex. Scientific research shows us that if we teach them comprehensive sex education, including how and why to correctly use a condom, they are much more likely to actually use a condom when they do have sex, than if we teach them that abstinance is the only option.

 

[Midnight Circus]

The morning after pill only helps if the problem you are trying to avoid is an unwanted pregnancy.

I was actually taking a jab at the idea that children (or fetuses, if you will) can be considered "problems." But, yes, you're right about that. Most certainly.

Adolecents and young adults are going to have sex. Scientific research shows us that if we teach them comprehensive sex education, including how and why to correctly use a condom, they are much more likely to actually use a condom when they do have sex, than if we teach them that abstinance is the only option.

You say that almost as though it's inevitable. While education is certainly important, to do so simply because "they're going to do it anyway" isn't exactly the best reason, is it? Such a policy seems almost...Calvinistic.

 

[Icycle]

The fact is, he almost always uses a condom, but like some men he feels it takes away from the over-all sensation. So right now he's been playing the pull-out game. Which is a game often lost.

Unfortunately, even if you do pull out before ejaculation, there can still be sufficient sperm in the pre-seminal fluid to impregnate someone. Not to mention there is still the possibility of transmitting STDs when you don't use a condom.

If he is worried about sensation, he could try out the female condom with his partner. It is inserted into the vagina instead of being put on the penis, and while not exactly like sex without a condom, it gives a distinctly different sensation than sex with a male condom. From what I understand, when used correctly, a female condom gives a similar level of protection and similar failure rates as the male condom.

That being said, two of the past times where he had a pregnancy scare has been from breaking said condom.

If he has already broken a condom twice in the past, it seems very likely he doesn't know how to use them properly. When used correctly, a condom has a very low failure rate, but there are a lot of ways for a naive user to use them incorrectly, e.g. using condom that has been exposed to high temperatures, using a condom with an oil based lubricant, or failing to leave space at the tip for ejaculate. Even many comprehensive sex education classes don't necessarily give this level of detail in condom usage necessary for a high success rate.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

Using abortion as a form a birth control is not only stupid, it's not safe. After about 3 abortions, a woman's chances of being able to have kids decreases dramatically.

But if a guy is runnin' around having sex and getting women pregnant, he wouldn't need to worry about health concerns because of abortion. If a women is constantly having problems then she'll have a problem, but a guy with multiple partners wouldn't.

 

[Icycle]

You say that almost as though it's inevitable. While education is certainly important, to do so simply because "they're going to do it anyway" isn't exactly the best reason, is it? Such a policy seems almost...Calvinistic.

The drive to procreate is one of the most powerful urges we experience. Yes, I do believe it is inevitable that people are going to have sex, whether it is as minors or young adults. The fact is an overwhelming majority of Americans participate in pre-marital sex. When people start having sex, I want them to be equipped with the knowledge to be able to avoid unwanted sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancies. The only opportunity we have to make sure this information is widely diseminated is by teaching comprehensive sex education in schools.

Conservatives might want to believe in a world where no one has sex before marriage, all people only have one partner their entire life, and all sex is for the purpose of procreation. But that is very much not the world we live in. In the world we live in, people have sex both in marriages and outside marriages, they have many partners throughout their lives, and most sex is not to create children. Because this is the real world that we live in, teaching people how to avoid unwanted diseases and babies is important.

 

[ShiningIce]

Most of my friends HATE condoms. Hardly any feeling AT ALL. they use the pull out rule. Not sure how I feel about that but from what I can gather most men have problems feeling with a rubber on.

 

[Midnight Circus]

But if a guy is runnin' around having sex and getting women pregnant, he wouldn't need to worry about health concerns because of abortion. If a women is constantly having problems then she'll have a problem, but a guy with multiple partners wouldn't.

...there's something fundamentally wrong with that, but I don't feel like pointing it out. I think it's time to vacate this thread and go to sleep for once.

 

[asutickler]

The idea of impregnating someone seriously freaks me out... To the point that I've actually given serious thought to a vasectomy.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

...there's something fundamentally wrong with that, but I don't feel like pointing it out. I think it's time to vacate this thread and go to sleep for once.

I agree but it's not against the law, it's not hurting anyone.

 

[Midnight Circus]

The drive to procreate is one of the most powerful urges we experience. Yes, I do believe it is inevitable that people are going to have sex, whether it is as minors or young adults. The fact is an overwhelming majority of Americans participate in pre-marital sex. When people start having sex, I want them to be equipped with the knowledge to be able to avoid unwanted sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancies. The only opportunity we have to make sure this information is widely diseminated is by teaching comprehensive sex education in schools.

Conservatives might want to believe in a world where no one has sex before marriage, all people only have one partner their entire life, and all sex is for the purpose of procreation. But that is very much not the world we live in. In the world we live in, people have sex both in marriages and outside marriages, they have many partners throughout their lives, and most sex is not to create children. Because this is the real world that we live in, teaching people how to avoid unwanted diseases and babies is important.

I'll get to this tomorrow, I guess. Or I could just write it off now by claiming "straw-man fallacy" on half of it (since I never said that we shouldn't educate people...and I'm a liberal, besides) and point out that the rest is based in the realm of assumption...for a number of reasons that I don't feel like pointing out at present...

...yeah, I'll just get to this tomorrow. Only then will I be able to give it the proper consideration that it deserves.

Oh, right, I guess I should mention this now:

I argue through a persona, so if I seem a bit intense, don't take it personally. It's just how I am on message boards.

 

[Icycle]

Most of my friends HATE condoms. Hardly any feeling AT ALL. they use the pull out rule. Not sure how I feel about that but from what I can gather most men have problems feeling with a rubber on.

Pulling out won't prevent prenancies nor STDs. If your friends don't want to wear a condom, they could try the female condom instead. Or they could try polyurathane condoms, which are slightly thinner than latex condoms. Either of these options will give a high level of protection against pregnancies and STDs and will give more sensation than a typical latex condom.

Pulling out as a method of contraception has a very high failure rate. Essentially any other contraceptive method will be more successful at preventing unwanted preganancies. I'm surprised your friends' partners let them get away with such a risky "contraceptive" method.

 

[Icycle]

But if a guy is runnin' around having sex and getting women pregnant, he wouldn't need to worry about health concerns because of abortion. If a women is constantly having problems then she'll have a problem, but a guy with multiple partners wouldn't.

He absolutely needs to worry about health concerns, but not because of abortions. If a guy is having multiple partners and isn't using a condom, he is at risk for sexually transmitted diseases, which can be unpleasant, painful, or even deadly. If you are going to have sex with multiple partners, wear a condom.

 

[Midnight Circus]

I agree but it's not against the law, it's not hurting anyone.

What isn't, participating in this thread or, as a guy, not caring about what happens to your partner(s)?

Assuming it's the latter, not caring about what happens to your partner(s) may not be against the law, but it certainly does hurt someone: namely, your partner(s). Something doesn't have to be against the law in order to hurt someone...the legal system is far from perfect. Besides, such indifference would break a number of cultural mandates, if not any legal code (i.e. in the court of public opinion, such a person would be considered a jerk). Our culture is declining, but I don't like to think that we're that far gone...

 

[aun_existe_amor]

He absolutely needs to worry about health concerns, but not because of abortions. If a guy is having multiple partners and isn't using a condom, he is at risk for sexually transmitted diseases, which can be unpleasant, painful, or even deadly. If you are going to have sex with multiple partners, wear a condom.

I agree. When you sleep with someone you sleep with their past partners too if they have an STI. It's not all about unwanted pregnancies.

 

[Tickle Fiend]

What isn't, participating in this thread or, as a guy, not caring about what happens to your partner(s)?

Assuming it's the latter, not caring about what happens to your partner(s) may not be against the law, but it certainly does hurt someone: namely, your partner(s). Something doesn't have to be against the law in order to hurt someone...the legal system is far from perfect. Besides, such indifference would break a number of cultural mandates, if not any legal code (i.e. in the court of public opinion, such a person would be considered a jerk). Our culture is declining, but I don't like to think that we're that far gone...

I mean the abortions aren't hurting the male or female, as long as they're performed successfully

 

[Tickle Fiend]

He absolutely needs to worry about health concerns, but not because of abortions. If a guy is having multiple partners and isn't using a condom, he is at risk for sexually transmitted diseases, which can be unpleasant, painful, or even deadly. If you are going to have sex with multiple partners, wear a condom.

I know he should worry about STD's, I was just saying that he wouldn't be harmed by an abortion. For a female, she could possibly face health concerns after a certain amount of abortion, but a male has no limits when it comes to abortions. I'm not condoning a guy having multiple partners who have multiple abortions, I'm just telling it like it is.

 

[LindyHopper]

I think that regardless of how we believe the world ought to be, or wish that it was, the fact is that folks in the under-22 bracket are overrepresented among people having irresponsible sex, and suffering the consequences because of it. Saying "they should be more careful" or "they shouldn't be having sex anyway" has essentially no impact on what actually goes on.

Based on the data available, the best solution is to provide students complete information about sex, STDs, and birth control methods. Icycle and others have already covered that base pretty well in this thread.

Based on my own personal experience, I don't know what the best solution is. I was born and raised in northern CA, where comprehensive sex education is the norm. I started out my sexual career in a long-term, monogamous relationship, where we communicated well and took all necessary precautions. That didn't stop me from making a few of my own mistakes once I got to college, and it's only dumb luck that nothing life-altering happened to me.

I don't blame my parents, or my educational system, or my partners (after all, it takes two). I had all of the information I needed to make sound decisions, and still failed to make them. Maybe I needed some assertiveness training, or self esteem help, or more social support during a time when I was especially vulnerable. Or maybe I just needed to grow up.

Anyway, I realize it's completely unhelpful in the meantime, but most people do get better as they mature. For whatever that's worth.

 

[Goodieluver]

two teachings i enjoy

"avoid the pain" abstain"

and
"Safe sex is in the palm of your hand"

 

[Headsnap]

You can provide people with information on STDs and AIDS and the responsibilities of being a parent until you're blue in the face, they're not going to be heeding it in the throes of hormone induced hornyness which accounts for maybe 90% of sex teenagers have. You don't pull someone's knickers down, stop for half a minute to slip a condom on, then go at it because it kills the moment, not to mention it feels like you're shagging a rubber glove.

To the educated, mature mind these seem like trivial concerns when you're talking about the possibility of pregnancy or sterility through sexually transmitted infections from random partners, but the thing to remember is that we're looking at it from the perspective of a person who has grown up and realised that the people who tell you all this stuff aren't trying to scare you or make sex seem like a forbidden sin that you should never ever do because God says; they're giving you the knowledge to look after yourself. The average teenager believes they are bulletproof and is concerned with losing their virginity and fucking as much as they can so that people will think they're all grown up, and any advice is seen as scaremongering perpetrated by people who don't want them to have sex, which of course couples with their hormones and makes them want to have sex even more because it is forbidden. You can't put an old head on young shoulders in the same way that you can't tell people who refuse to be told. The way I look at it people are responsible for their own stupidity; concern yourself with looking after yourself, if others want to shag everything that moves without taking precautions then let them have at it, they can deal with the consequences when they arise.

 

[isabeau]

So you don't agree?

All I'm saying is, if one thinks they are "mature enough" to engage in sexual intercourse, they should be mature enough to take the steps to be safe.

i agree with this statement....point in fact, my niece has been sexually active for some time now...she is 20....she is pregnant...what i admire in her, she won't marry the father...he is ten years older and still can't keep a job..she says she will pay all medical bills...she is planning on keeping this baby...going to school, holding down two jobs....i highly admire her...she is much more mature than i was at that age....

she might not have taken the steps to be safe, but she is mature enough to handle said mistake...

on the downside, i'm too young to be a great aunt....

 

[Headsnap]

Exactly. When I was at school (I hate saying that, I'm 24 and it makes me feel like some old grandad with a flat cap and a pipe 🙁 ) sex education classes weren't particularly preachy, the teacher who took the class was bloody good at discussing the subject and, although she was appropriately responsible and mature about it, never made the lessons feel as though they were geared towards steering us away from having sex. Even still my adolescent mind chose to perceive this attempt to educate as some sort of scare tactic designed to tell me what could go wrong (even though the teacher acknowledged that we were going to be having sex and told us where to get contraceptives and how to use them), and so I chose to ignore it because I was 15 and bulletproof. Yeah lots of people were having kids and a few people got the clap, but that wasn't going to happen to me because I was me and I was therefore somehow exempt from badness. It's the same attitude that got me into smoking and taking cocaine; I won't get addicted/ get cancer/ get into a shitload of debt because those things only happen to other people. A few years later an ex-girlfriend got pregnant with twins and I shit my briches; "fortunately" enough it turned out she had been shagging around behind my back while I was away working and they weren't mine.

The moral of this woeful little tale is that kids, and in fact a lot of young adults, are of the opinion that bad things only happen to other people, and this attitude only really evapourates when something bad happens to them and they realise they are not, in fact, immortal. Even then with some people it doesn't leave, it just becomes an attitude of "well I had a scare but that's my share of bad luck out of the way, it'll never happen again". That seems to be the human condition, and in my opinion there are two ways you can handle this:

1) Rant and rave and rail against it until you're blue in the face, thus increasing your own blood pressure and not really solving anything.

2) Realise that people are going to do whatever they want no matter what sage advice they are given, let them get on with it, and let them take responsibility for their own stupidity when it catches up to them.

 

[GodlessTickler]

Well a few things here I would like to comment on, and I will ignore the abortion issue for the moment at the posters request.
First of all yes, younger people are often irresponsible and it is aggravating to see this irresponsibility manifest itself. It aggravates me most because we are finally (after CENTURIES of repression) getting out from under the thumb of people who want to dictate peoples own personal choices. We aren't all the way there yet, but we are a lot better off. Even though it isn't a good argument when we as a group are irresponsible people like to argue that that is proof we shouldn't have the freedom in the first place and they were right all along. Now certainly irresponsibility doesn't even remotely prove that, but it does give the ammo to the "we know what's best for you... and the children" freedom crushing crowd and I hate to see that.
As for the whole sort of, education doesn't matter people aren't going to use condoms anyway. Well, some aren't but if you think that sexual education makes no difference in condom and birth control usage then I would challenge you to show some numbers supporting that. Certainly SOME people will just ignore it, that can't be avoided... but from my own personal experience particularly in college (and to say my group of friends was somewhat sexually active is kind of like saying the 700 club is somewhat religious) the message is getting through to some people at least. All my friends used protection the huge majority of the time. I'm not saying mistakes were never made or that there weren't people who didn't but the idea that "oh hormones are just so powerful no one will ever do that" just doesn't seem to bare out in my real life experience or ANY study I have EVER seen.

As far as sensation goes... well, if you want to just have one partner your whole life, who has only had one partner, the more power to you... but if you have multiple partners, well it's just unsafe, and you should try the sensations of a few sti's on for size and see if you like that sensation. Or the sensation of finding out you may have gotten someone pregnant. Or I am sure AIDS by itself provides a whole myriad of sensations for you to enjoy. Oh, and if sensations are your concern, and your not worried about std's because you know your partner and yourself are both clean (from a test please, "but he said I was his FIRST TIME" is not a very reliable method) try the pill. I don't think it has any negative effects on sensation, and it is after all BOTH people's responsibility to be safe. And you know, if you are so TOTALY unable to deal with a condom, and your not worried about sti's (not a wise move) then yeah, snip snip is a way better idea than the "pull out method" or any other such ridiculousness.

So that's my two cents for now. We have the privilege of living with a lot more freedom than most, but there is responsibility that comes with that.

 

[steph]

No. I do agree, absolutely. But I think I was sort of a pioneer in those days, especially for the times. My friends always teased me for being so vigilant. No one worried about getting AIDs in early 80s. It was still a "****** disease."
(I do not and never have felt that way, for the record.) I'm not sure if life is considered less precious or young people just feel so stupidly invincible. I'm not sure which is more dangerous.
XOXO

So you don't agree?

All I'm saying is, if one thinks they are "mature enough" to engage in sexual intercourse, they should be mature enough to take the steps to be safe.