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Halloween???........stick it..........

red indian

2nd Level Yellow Feather
Joined
Apr 3, 2001
Messages
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....you know where! I know you guys in the states love your feeble, contrived, fake "traditions", which have the robust authenticity of ENRONS credit rating, but I really do object to the increasing levels of "mission creep" this side of the pond.

Various, foul, nauseating, U.S. TV shows have found their way to the U.K. They act like some sort of suffocating germ warfare bug,which has persuaded many gullible vacuous teenagers that they need to adopt this plastic, imitation, bogus "festival" as one of their own.

This really is the bad side of U.S. influence on world culture, and I am very annoyed that this desparately false, cheap, "stick on" version of a rather dubious "traditional festival" is finding roots in the U.K.

Any one trying to "trick or treat" me this year will get the same responce...."Fuck off home and stop watching shit U.S. TV shows.......oh and.....get a bloody life for christs sake!!!"
 
Whatever happened to the "flame free forum"? Red indian have you never heard the phrase "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? You don't see us ripping on your traditions. Not trying to be rude or anything, but your post seems too harsh to me.

Kitten
 
A History Lesson for Red....


Our modern celebration of Halloween is a descendent of the ancient Celtic fire festival called "Samhain". The word is pronounced "sow-in", with "sow" rhyming with cow.

The Celts believed that when people died, they went to a land of eternal youth and happiness called Tir nan Og. They did not have the concept of heaven and hell that the Christian church later brought into the land. The dead were sometimes believed to be dwelling with the Fairy Folk, who lived in the numerous mounds or sidhe (pron. "shee") that dotted the Irish and Scottish countryside. Samhain was the new year to the Celts. In the Celtic belief system, turning points, such as the time between one day and the next, the meeting of sea and shore, or the turning of one year into the next were seen as magickal times. The turning of the year was the most potent of these times. This was the time when the "veil between the worlds" was at its thinnest, and the living could communicate with their beloved dead in Tir nan Og.

The Celts did not have demons and devils in their belief system. The fairies, however, were often considered hostile and dangerous to humans because they were seen as being resentful of men taking over their lands. On this night, they would sometimes trick humans into becoming lost in the fairy mounds, where they would be trapped forever. After the coming of the Christians to the Celtic lands, certain of the folk saw the fairies as those angels who had sided neither with God or with Lucifer in their dispute, and thus, were condemned to walk the earth until judgment day.(3) In addition to the fairies, many humans were abroad on this night, causing mischief. since this night belonged neither to one year or the other, Celtic folk believed that chaos reigned and the people would engage in "horseplay and practical jokes".(4) This served also as a final outlet for high spirits before the gloom of winter set in.

During the course of these hijinks, many of the people would imitate the fairies and go from house to house begging for treats. Failure to supply the treats would usually result in practical jokes being visited on the owner of the house. Since the fairies were abroad on this night, an offering of food or milk was frequently left for them on the steps of the house, so the homeowner could gain the blessings of the "good folk" for the coming year. Many of the households would also leave out a "dumb supper" for the spirits of the departed.(5) The folks who were abroad in the night imitating the fairies would some- times carry turnips carved to represent faces. This is the origin of our modern Jack-o-lantern.

Celtic religion was very closely tied to the Earth. Their great legends are concerned with momentous happenings which took place around the time of Samhain. many of the great battles and legends of kings and heroes center on this night. Many of the legends concern the promotion of fertility of the earth and the insurance of the continuance of the lives of the people through the dark winter season.

When the potato crop in Ireland failed, many of the Irish people, modern day descendents of the Celts, immigrated to America, bringing with them their folk practices, which are the remnants of the Celtic festival observances.

The Celts had 3 harvests: Aug 1, or Lammas, was the first harvest, when the first fruits were offered to the Gods in thanks. The Fall Equinox was the "true harvest". This was when the bulk of the crops would be brought in. Samhain was the final harvest of the year. Anything left on the vines or in the fields after this date was considered blasted by the fairies, or "pu'ka", and unfit for human consumption.

Many followers of various pagan religions, such as Druids and Wiccans observe this day as a religious festival. They view it as a memorial day for their dead friends, similar to the national holiday of Memorial Day in May. It is still a night to practice various forms of divination concerning future events. Also, it is considered a time to wrap up old projects, take stock of ones life, and initiate new projects for the coming year. As the winter season is approaching, it is a good time to do studying on research projects and also a goot time to begin hand work such as sewing, leather working, woodworking, etc. for Yule gifts later in the year.



Do try to learn your history as to the origins of Halloween before you go slathering about blaming "America" for the traditions associated with Halloween. Now pull that broom out of your ass and give it back to the exasperated witch that stuck it there.

Mimi
 
Thank you Mimi for the well thought, informed and intelligent reply.

Kitten :cat:
 
When Brit Mouths Attack

red indian said:
...This really is the bad side of U.S. influence on world culture, and I am very annoyed that this desparately false, cheap, "stick on" version of a rather dubious "traditional festival" is finding roots in the U.K...

Oh, I know what you mean, luvvy--kinda' like when you guys go APE WILD celebrating the Queen's Birthday, Boxing Day and ALL those ENDLESS Bank Holidays over here!??! Whoo-hoooo! Paaaartyyyy!!!

BTW, it's spelled "d-e-s-p-e-r-a-t-e-l-y", doll.
 
red indian said:
....you know where! I know you guys in the states love your feeble, contrived, fake "traditions", which have the robust authenticity of ENRONS credit rating, but I really do object to the increasing levels of "mission creep" this side of the pond.

Various, foul, nauseating, U.S. TV shows have found their way to the U.K. They act like some sort of suffocating germ warfare bug,which has persuaded many gullible vacuous teenagers that they need to adopt this plastic, imitation, bogus "festival" as one of their own.

This really is the bad side of U.S. influence on world culture, and I am very annoyed that this desparately false, cheap, "stick on" version of a rather dubious "traditional festival" is finding roots in the U.K.

Any one trying to "trick or treat" me this year will get the same responce...."Fuck off home and stop watching shit U.S. TV shows.......oh and.....get a bloody life for christs sake!!!"


get into your pj's go crawl into beddie and sleep for a few Hours. and Chill out!!!!! you'll feel much better in the morning.
 
Dear,dear, me!

There are a million different explanations about ages old traditions, some questionable and some not. I only need to buy into one:

Halloween is FUN! Dress up. Masquerade all over town and play mischief on friends! You're missing out on some good stuff there Red-bottom-boy!

Now, say you're sorry to all the pretty ladies and gents and next year you too may get a Hwlloween TREAT!

Cheers and Happy Halloween y'all!:devil:
Jo
 
Thank you for the insight, Mimi.
Red, why so sour on Halloween? Granted, it can be a nasty experience for some with teenagers egging houses or putting toilet paper on trees. (One year someone broke a window in my father's den, where I was doing homework, and narrowly missed being hit, because someone had thrown a rock through a window, luckily as I had stepped out of the room.)
Mostly, to me Halloween is an innocent holiday with little kids dressing up in various costumes, and going house to house, or apartment to apartment asking for candy. When I was a kid, I lived in this 30 story highrise in NJ, and I went to EVERY apartment asking for treats, and usually came back with a plastic pumpkin full of candy to last me a month.
That being said, my complex does have a rule of no trick or treating for security purposes. Our complex, while very nice, is on the border of a very rough area with drugs and high crime, and the management fears that rough kids or troublemakers will cause trouble or rob people on Halloween, so basically if someone rings our doors, we are instructed by management or the police to ignore it. A sad state of affairs I think.
That being said, I used to love Halloween, especially when I lived in that highrise. It is the one day kids seemingly dream of to get unlimited candy to eat, and I think it innocent and fun for them. Only my view.

Mitch
 
red indian said:
....you know where! I know you guys in the states love your feeble, contrived, fake "traditions", which have the robust authenticity of ENRONS credit rating, but I really do object to the increasing levels of "mission creep" this side of the pond.

Various, foul, nauseating, U.S. TV shows have found their way to the U.K. They act like some sort of suffocating germ warfare bug,which has persuaded many gullible vacuous teenagers that they need to adopt this plastic, imitation, bogus "festival" as one of their own.

This really is the bad side of U.S. influence on world culture, and I am very annoyed that this desparately false, cheap, "stick on" version of a rather dubious "traditional festival" is finding roots in the U.K.

Any one trying to "trick or treat" me this year will get the same responce...."Fuck off home and stop watching shit U.S. TV shows.......oh and.....get a bloody life for christs sake!!!"

I like how Election Day always follows Halloween by just a few days. I usually wonder if that's intentional.

Red, your posts ALWAYS make me laugh. You have one of the very best senses of humor on this board. Hey, joke 'em if they can't take a fuck.
 
ticklkitten said:
Whatever happened to the "flame free forum"? Red indian have you never heard the phrase "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? You don't see us ripping on your traditions. Not trying to be rude or anything, but your post seems too harsh to me.

Kitten

Yea, you find people like that anywhere.

Spirit Online: Wicca & Magick: The Eight Sabbats:Samhain

By Mike Nichols

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This file may be freely distributed provided that the following conditions are met: (1) No fee is charged for its use and distribution and no commercial use is made of it; (2) This file is not changed or edited in any way without the author's permission; (3) This notice is not removed. By Mike Nichols, copyright by MicroMuse Press.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samhain. All Hallows. All Hallow's Eve. Hallow E'en. Halloween. The most magical night of the year. Exactly opposite Beltane on the wheel of the year, Halloween is Beltane's dark twin. A night of glowing jack-o-lanterns, bobbing for apples, tricks or treats, and dressing in costume. A night of ghost stories and seances, tarot card readings and scrying with mirrors. A night of power, when the veil that separates our world from the Otherworld is at its thinnest. A 'spirit night', as they say in Wales.

All Hallow's Eve is the eve of All Hallow's Day (November 1st). And for once, even popular tradition remembers that the Eve is more important than the Day itself, the traditional celebration focusing on October 31st, beginning at sundown. And this seems only fitting for the great Celtic New Year's festival. Not that the holiday was Celtic only. In fact, it is startling how many ancient and unconnected cultures (the Egyptians and pre-Spanish Mexicans, for example) celebrated this as a festival of the dead. But the majority of our modern traditions can be traced to the British Isles.

The Celts called it Samhain, which means 'summer's end', according to their ancient two-fold division of the year, when summer ran from Beltane to Samhain and winter ran from Samhain to Beltane. (Some modern Covens echo this structure by letting the High Priest 'rule' the Coven beginning on Samhain, with rulership returned to the High Priestess at Beltane.) According to the later four-fold division of the year, Samhain is seen as 'autumn's end' and the beginning of winter. Samhain is pronounced (depending on where you're from) as 'sow-in' (in Ireland), or 'sow-een' (in Wales), or 'sav-en' (in Scotland), or (inevitably) 'sam-hane' (in the U.S., where we don't speak Gaelic).

Not only is Samhain the end of autumn; it is also, more importantly, the end of the old year and the beginning of the new. Celtic New Year's Eve, when the new year begins with the onset of the dark phase of the year, just as the new day begins at sundown. There are many representations of Celtic gods with two faces, and it surely must have been one of them who held sway over Samhain. Like his Greek counterpart Janus, he would straddle the threshold, one face turned toward the past in commemoration of those who died during the last year, and one face gazing hopefully toward the future, mystic eyes attempting to pierce the veil and divine what the coming year holds. These two themes, celebrating the dead and divining the future, are inexorably intertwined in Samhain, as they are likely to be in any New Year's celebration.

As a feast of the dead, it was believed the dead could, if they wished, return to the land of the living for this one night, to celebrate with their family, tribe, or clan. And so the great burial mounds of Ireland (sidh mounds) were opened up, with lighted torches lining the walls, so the dead could find their way. Extra places were set at the table and food set out for any who had died that year. And there are many stories that tell of Irish heroes making raids on the Underworld while the gates of faery stood open, though all must return to their appointed places by cock-crow.

As a feast of divination, this was the night par excellence for peering into the future. The reason for this has to do with the Celtic view of time. In a culture that uses a linear concept of time, like our modern one, New Year's Eve is simply a milestone on a very long road that stretches in a straight line from birth to death. Thus, the New Year's festival is a part of time. The ancient Celtic view of time, however, is cyclical. And in this framework, New Year's Eve represents a point outside of time, when the natural order of the universe dissolves back into primordial chaos, preparatory to re- establishing itself in a new order. Thus, Samhain is a night that exists outside of time and hence it may be used to view any other point in time. At no other holiday is a tarot card reading, crystal reading, or tea-leaf reading so likely to succeed.

The Christian religion, with its emphasis on the 'historical' Christ and his act of redemption 2000 years ago, is forced into a linear view of time, where 'seeing the future' is an illogical proposition. In fact, from the Christian perspective, any attempt to do so is seen as inherently evil. This did not keep the medieval Church from co-opting Samhain's other motif, commemoration of the dead. To the Church, however, it could never be a feast for all the dead, but only the blessed dead, all those hallowed (made holy) by obedience to God - thus, All Hallow's, or Hallowmas, later All Saints and All Souls.

There are so many types of divination that are traditional to Hallowstide, it is possible to mention only a few. Girls were told to place hazel nuts along the front of the firegrate, each one to symbolize one of her suitors. She could then divine her future husband by chanting, 'If you love me, pop and fly; if you hate me, burn and die.' Several methods used the apple, that most popular of Halloween fruits. You should slice an apple through the equator (to reveal the five-pointed star within) and then eat it by candlelight before a mirror. Your future spouse will then appear over your shoulder. Or, peel an apple, making sure the peeling comes off in one long strand, reciting, 'I pare this apple round and round again; / My sweetheart's name to flourish on the plain: / I fling the unbroken paring o'er my head, / My sweetheart's letter on the ground to read.' Or, you might set a snail to crawl through the ashes of your hearth. The considerate little creature will then spell out the initial letter as it moves.

Perhaps the most famous icon of the holiday is the jack-o-lantern. Various authorities attribute it to either Scottish or Irish origin. However, it seems clear that it was used as a lantern by people who traveled the road this night, the scary face to frighten away spirits or faeries who might otherwise lead one astray. Set on porches and in windows, they cast the same spell of protection over the household. (The American pumpkin seems to have forever superseded the European gourd as the jack-o-lantern of choice.) Bobbing for apples may well represent the remnants of a Pagan 'baptism' rite called a 'seining', according to some writers. The water-filled tub is a latter-day Cauldron of Regeneration, into which the novice's head is immersed. The fact that the participant in this folk game was usually blindfolded with hands tied behind the back also puts one in mind of a traditional Craft initiation ceremony.

The custom of dressing in costume and 'trick-or-treating' is of Celtic origin with survivals particularly strong in Scotland. However, there are some important differences from the modern version. In the first place, the custom was not relegated to children, but was actively indulged in by adults as well. Also, the 'treat' which was required was often one of spirits (the liquid variety). This has recently been revived by college students who go 'trick-or-drinking'. And in ancient times, the roving bands would sing seasonal carols from house to house, making the tradition very similar to Yuletide wassailing. In fact, the custom known as 'caroling', now connected exclusively with mid-winter, was once practiced at all the major holidays. Finally, in Scotland at least, the tradition of dressing in costume consisted almost exclusively of cross-dressing (i.e., men dressing as women, and women as men). It seems as though ancient societies provided an opportunity for people to 'try on' the role of the opposite gender for one night of the year. (Although in Scotland, this is admittedly less dramatic - but more confusing - since men were in the habit of wearing skirt-like kilts anyway. Oh well...)

To Witches, Halloween is one of the four High Holidays, or Greater Sabbats, or cross-quarter days. Because it is the most important holiday of the year, it is sometimes called 'THE Great Sabbat.' It is an ironic fact that the newer, self-created Covens tend to use the older name of the holiday, Samhain, which they have discovered through modern research. While the older hereditary and traditional Covens often use the newer name, Halloween, which has been handed down through oral tradition within their Coven. (This is often holds true for the names of the other holidays, as well. One may often get an indication of a Coven's antiquity by noting what names it uses for the holidays.)

With such an important holiday, Witches often hold two distinct celebrations. First, a large Halloween party for non-Craft friends, often held on the previous weekend. And second, a Coven ritual held on Halloween night itself, late enough so as not to be interrupted by trick-or-treaters. If the rituals are performed properly, there is often the feeling of invisible friends taking part in the rites. Another date which may be utilized in planning celebrations is the actual cross-quarter day, or Old Halloween, or Halloween O.S. (Old Style). This occurs when the sun has reached 15 degrees Scorpio, an astrological 'power point' symbolized by the Eagle. This year (1988), the date is November 6th at 10:55 pm CST, with the celebration beginning at sunset. Interestingly, this date (Old Halloween) was also appropriated by the Church as the holiday of Martinmas.

Of all the Witchcraft holidays, Halloween is the only one that still boasts anything near to popular celebration. Even though it is typically relegated to children (and the young-at-heart) and observed as an evening affair only, many of its traditions are firmly rooted in Paganism. Interestingly, some schools have recently attempted to abolish Halloween parties on the grounds that it violates the separation of state and religion. Speaking as a Pagan, I would be saddened by the success of this move, but as a supporter of the concept of religion-free public education, I fear I must concede the point. Nonetheless, it seems only right that there SHOULD be one night of the year when our minds are turned toward thoughts of the supernatural. A night when both Pagans and non-Pagans may ponder the mysteries of the Otherworld and its inhabitants. And if you are one of them, may all your jack-o'lanterns burn bright on this All Hallow's Eve.



 
I second it

Really interesting Mimi (I had no idea!)~and a hilarious response as well!

XOXO,
Me (whose fave holiday all year is Halloween)

PS to Meems and Laz~SciFi channel is starting a new series on real life ghost hunters!

ticklkitten said:
Thank you Mimi for the well thought, informed and intelligent reply.

Kitten :cat:
 
Reading lesson............

....for all the smug amateur historians who feel I need "educating" please at least do me the courtesy of reading my post a little more carefully.

Lets see which one of you emeritus professors of pagan history can tell me which key word you missed in my post, or more likley choose to ignore?

Let me give you a clue it starts with the letter V.
 
Having said that.........

.....Blackmoon seems to have a point! (were you following me round town last night watching me get drunk??!!)

Oh and relax you guys who think its a flame, it is not directed at any one personally, they are my views on the SUBJECT and not an attack on an individual, and it was intended to be humurous, while making a serious point about smothering nature of some U.S. kids TV shows.

(dont know why I bother sometimes)
 
Red - shut up. I celebrate Hallowe'en every day, and October 31st is like my personal major holidays, all rolled into one. Well, actually I stay inside 'cause today everyone looks like me - curses.

Also: Guy fawkes day. HawHAW. L-A-M-E.
 
Halloween rules!

And I hate to break it to you, but I can't even count the number of god-awful TV shows we have in America that came from England (American Idol, Big Brother (the worst!), I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.....)
 
jorus5 said:
Halloween rules!

And I hate to break it to you, but I can't even count the number of god-awful TV shows we have in America that came from England (American Idol, Big Brother (the worst!), I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out of Here.....)


And what about all those crappy anime' kids shows ...(for cryin out loud, even freakin Batman is goin anime' with "The Batman" ...good thing they still have Justice League Unlimted, with the best Batman ever..)
 
First of all I'd like to apologise on behalf of Britain for all the shows jorus5 mentioned. Second of all to Red Indian cheer up you misreable old sod. Halloween's for shit's and giigles, the only night of the year (not including the odd fancy dress party) where you can dress up as a complete berk and not people take this piss out of you. Though I didn't know us Brits started Halloween. I thought it was just there.
 
Oh, Jeeeesus! Are we still giving this cretin AIRTIME!??

"Oh and relax you guys who think its a flame, it is not directed at anyone personally, they are my views on the SUBJECT and not an attack on an individual, and it was intended to be humurous, while making a serious point about smothering nature of some U.S. kids TV shows."

Get real darling--your post was ANYTHING but humorous. Now you are taking it all back and trying to pass it as a joke due to all the negative comments. Even My fiance--who IS English--thought your post was deplorable and in poor taste. Halloween is about having F-U-N. 'Oh, gosh, but it's SUCH an over-commercialized holiday!!' SO WHAT!?? Halloween is about being carefree for one night and having FUN! Remember what THAT is? Oh, yeah, I forgot...you're English.
 
Looks like Elton John isn't the only Brit trying to get some attention by shooting his mouth off.....:whip:


The Sean Man
 
Hey Red, we have a saying here across the pond. If you don't like it, then don't watch it. Simple. It obviously buggs you, so watch something british made. Over here some of the shows in brittian are great, and there is alot that we think is as just as much rubish as you think our shows are. But it we don't like it, we don't watch it. And if you don't want kids trick or treating at your house, just do what we do over here, turn the porch light off and don't answer the door. Porch light off is the universal sign that this house don't give out candy and is not participating.
 
Re: Reading lesson............

red indian said:
....for all the smug amateur historians who feel I need "educating" please at least do me the courtesy of reading my post a little more carefully.

Lets see which one of you emeritus professors of pagan history can tell me which key word you missed in my post, or more likley choose to ignore?

Let me give you a clue it starts with the letter V.


Various...😕
 
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