partial birth abortions

[TickledToDeath]

Scenario Reversal

To all those who think all abortions should be outlawed and the power of choice be taken away........let's reverse the scenario.

The woman is pregnant, there are difficulties, dangers, whatever... too young, you fill in the specifics and circumstances as each has their own individual ones'.

You are told you HAVE to get an abortion, regardless of how you think or feel, period. It is the law and you must have an abortion.

How would you feel? No matter how much you wanted to have the baby, the law says........tough shit, say bye bye to baby inside.

You would not like that would you?

No matter what anyone says, regardless of what anyone thinks... no woman should be TOLD or ordered what she can and or cannot do with her body. Period.

Done deal.


TTD

 

[WraithTickler]

I'm glad the bill went through and dissapointed by the federal judges seeking to hold up the bill.

People in the American Civil Liberties Union and defenders of abortion stated they wish to defend the constitutional rights of the mother to have the child or kill it. Ironic how they overlook the reasoning behind the framework of the constitution: to provide a system of government to protect the life, then the liberty, and then the pursuit of happiness of its citizens. The issue at hand with abortion at large is defending a lifestyle, or comfortable level of living, at the expense of life as a whole. If a mother’s life is in danger from pregnancy, the bill amply provides the means to preserve the mother’s life. Anyone can agree failure to account for that would have been callous, but even more callous would be to kill another human for any reason less than the final defense of one’s own life. The omission of the health clause works to avoid murder most foul, again reaffirming the point that life should only be taken if one’s own life is at risk, and not for anything less to avoid abuse of this potential legal loophole.

The preservation of human life is something we should hold above all else in our understanding of natural and civil laws. The fact the bill passed with a commendable level of bipartisan support shows a majority of Americans believe that a baby in its second and third trimester is a human being and deserves the right to live. Those willing to fight the ban in the courts are a small lot, seeking to use judicial activism to fight off the will of the majority and to deny the weakest and most vulnerable people in our society an equal chance at living.

 

[TickledToDeath]

The preservation of human life is something we should hold above all else in our understanding of natural and civil laws. The fact the bill passed with a commendable level of bipartisan support shows a majority of Americans believe that a baby in its second and third trimester is a human being and deserves the right to live. Those willing to fight the ban in the courts are a small lot, seeking to use judicial activism to fight off the will of the majority and to deny the weakest and most vulnerable people in our society an equal chance at living.

Ok, HOWever.......what about the life of the person to be born?
Again,extenuating circumstances. Say it is known that the baby will be born....paralyzed. Neck down. Is it fair to condemn this baby/person to that means of 'life"? When this person makes it to the point of expression(verbally) and pleads to be spared any more agony and die with dignity, THAT is not allowed. That would be murder.
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness but no mention of dignity.
Think not of yourself but of another in this case.
How can one subject someone to such a life!!!!???
IF such a "fetus" could for only a moment in time communicate knowing ALL, what would that "being" say? What would be Its' decision?
IF it were YOU(any of you for that matter), what would you decide?
Well in the real world, a fetus cannot communicate thoughts or words. Not so much as a wink a frown or a smile. It is up to a grown person.
One person? OR 10,000 people? 1 million people? Is it going to come down to a 'vote' by the people of the United States on whether or not a person is born or not?

"Flash Flash, Marissa Jones of South Bend Indiana is pregnant. Voting will commence in 8 weeks, should the entity inside her live or be aborted"? Details are then given on a government mailed sample ballot telling every single known detail and progress to that point of the entity in question. People go to polls and cast their vote.... .

The fact of the matter is you cannot totally outlaw abortion.
Strict guidelines and circumstances MUST be taken into account, THEN and only then can a final decision be made.

TTD

 

[Marauder]

Re: mr marauder

when i read your post to me, i became so fucking enraged, i had an attack of blurred vission, and dizziness.

Tee-Hee. Don't worry, I get the same when I see you go off on one of your ill-conceived wild tangents. One gets used to it.

suffice to say that i shall not engage in a debate with a person of such low caliber as you.

Well, that is fortunate. Doesn't stop me from giving you a virtual noogie when you ask for it,

i am a nurse, and worked in a hospital where abortions were done. my own wife had two abortions behind my back. i have done much studying on the subject, as part of therapy, and nursing training. so yes i am extreemly knowledgeable. whether you want to recognise it or not.

Why doesn't it show, then? All I can see is an emotional reaction with no justification behind it.

*edited by request of poster*

 

[sincerity]

i have to vent

a

 

[sushi854]

yes jez, it's a shame that every single person who has responded to this thread supports a fascist limitation on womens' rights. As a stupid, brainwashed hypocritical man who once believed that there were better options of birth control than sucking the brain out of a full-term fetus (including early-term abortion if necessary), I encourage all to reform their views and begin to hate ourselves.

*distributes copies of the SCUM manifesto for reading pleasure*

 

[sincerity]

s

 

[venray]

Venting is one thing...calling everyone names and other things... not
necessary to make a point.

I was asked by a fellow mod to look into this thread. My first instinct is to delete the whole thing and send you all packing.

That won't happen.

I will say a few things however. Abortion is a hot issue with very little gray area involved. Most are either dead set against or totally for it.

That being said, it IS possible for adults to conduct themselves as such without name calling and worse. Stop it and talk the issues out.

I will add my opinion on this issue, which is something that I normally would not, but I have become rather outspoken as of late.

To me, there is never a reason to kill another human being. i consider the moment of conception as the begining of life (and aging and death if you will)

As far as using the argument that the mother may die...who are we to say who should live or die. Not our decision to make. To use the argument that we should not place restriction on abortion because women would find a way to have them done makes as much sense as to say we shouldnt make drug use illegal because addicts will find a way to get drugs. We should have no law at all because people will find a way around it any way? I think not.

The age old argument that it is the "woman's" body and no one has the right to say what she can or can't do with it again makes no sense. We have laws against suicide..why..it's her body..let her kill herself if she wants..again, I think not.

What the issue all boils down to is when you believe life begins and ends. The truth is that we as men can't make that judgement call....

There is absolutely no way that we can resolve this issue today or tomorrow or any other day, so at least let's be civil in presenting our opinions and remember that they are OPINIONS and nothing more. No one will convince another to change their views on this issue....At least we can be nice about it.


Ven

 

[sincerity]

s

 

[venray]

I relate only as one human relates to another. This is not a man vs. woman issue. This is about the begining and ending of life and I believe we have no right to choose who is to live and who is to die. I personally can not make that decision or live with myself if I did.

My views stand. As I said before it is my OPINION...nothing more and nothing less. I judge no one. It is not my place in this world....


We each must live with the daily decisions we make......

Ven

 

[sushi854]

ok i'll be nice

I reckon us Ohio farmboys who supposedly ain't never been exposed to them newfangled NYC idears can carry on a decent discussion, and I apologize for my sarcastic response, however, my earlier post was exactly that: SARCASTIC. Jez, I agree with you. You can't reasonably put limits on a medical procedure that may and does in fact become necessary, albeit rarely. If you had read the thread, you would have noticed that myself and several others already expressed this opinion, yet you responded as if we wanted to repeal the 19th Amendment. I made the mistake of not completely reading the thread before responding, and someone, in a rational manner, called me on it. I in turn revised my original post in a likewise rational manner. When you unleashed your barrage of absurdity (not your opinion on the partial birth issue but your assertion that we were all misogynistic anti-choice zealots), I responded in a sarcastic manner. I won't apologize for believing that people (women AND men) should be more responsible in order to make abortion unneccessary, but I certainly won't pretend to assume that everyone's situation is the same and that limits on choice should be applied, especially regarding procedures that may be medically necessary. Accidents happen, and sometimes people are faced with tough choices, and a lot of unwanted kids grow up in tough situations.

And now, on to the bigger issue: I certainly enjoy tickling, but i can't say I enjoy it more than sex. 😀

 

[sincerity]

h

 

[venray]

I am forcing m views on no one. I do not make the laws, I live with them. Abortion is legal..so be it..if tomorrow it is not..so be it...
I do not protest for or against the issue nor try to force any type of morality on anyone....again, it's not my place in this world to do so....


That will NOT change my opinion on the issue .... but I am not in charge of the world or the country or of anyone but me, so again I say that I do not judge..I live with my life's decisions daily so must we all...I sleep very well at night...and wish the same for all.


Ven

 

[sincerity]

Re: ok i'll be nice

o
\

 

[Rapid Assassin]

Pro choice...

I don't think it's my place in life to tell people what not to do in a certain situation, when the fetus is arguably not a separate entity from the mother. I would not ban abortions, but I'd never get one myself. The thought of it disgusts me, but I'm not 100% sure what I'd do in certain circumstances like rape. I'd like to think that I'd have the child, but I hope everyone would like to think they are doing what's right.

 

[sushi854]

Oooohh..ok you called me out on softening the blow of my pro-choice stance. You're right, good job. I am not comfortable with abortion. I have to be pro-choice, because I do not feel it is my right or anyone else's to judge another's morality or situation. I also realize that the whole responsible sex thing is wishful thinking on my part (especially with jerk-offs like sugarmouse's (hopefully) ex-boyfriend on the loose).

This is a fetish website, but from what I can tell there are some intelligent people here capable of carrying on and intelligent discussion. I felt that I adequately expressed my opinion, but perhaps I left it too cryptic in an attempt to maintain a rational discussion and not spark flames. I realize that a sizeable percentage of the members here are conservative men, which may seem understandibly irritating to someone such as yourself, and with whom I find myself in constant disagreement, I do make an attempt to find common ground and keep discussion civil unless I make the subjective decision that the person is a complete idiot. 🙂 For a minute, I almost stuck you in that category but I now realize that your outspokeness may not be all that bad and that you are certainly capable of expressing your views in a strong manner without venting. Basically, I'm sorry this whole little skirmish even happened.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

so much to say, so few that want to hear...

first jez, your views are exactly what i have come to expect from a 19 y.o. kid. your entitled to your opinions, and to express them. and i am entitled to laugh at the nievite that spawns them. when you grow up, i hope you'll have grown in more than size, and gained some wisdom too.

this board is hardly a place crawling with conservatives! you can coun't on one hand the true conservatives that post regularly around here.

now to diswade this absurd notion that p.b.a. is a medicaly need procedure. it is done in the manor in wich it is done, exactly because the baby at that point WILL survive if the birth were to be allowed to be completed. the baby is turned in the womb, and w/drawn feet first, and then as the head is exposed, the scull is punchtured, and the brain severly damaged. the result is death. now come on, if it that far along, why not just let the baby live? there is enough room, and air for the (as you claime) few that this would affect.

and just what the heck is wrong with adoption? there are people on the very board that have adopted, and are doing a fine job!

let's face it, this is just a sever form of after the fact birth control. how about crossing your legs, and not making the babies to begin with if you're not ready to have a family!

lastly, legalized abortion has always been around. the catch being that a dr. had to prove that the mother was really in dire straights.
my mother could have aborted my older brother in 1950, it was offered by the dr.s in the hospital she was rushed to. she said no, let's see how it goes. she did fine, he was born, and my mother went on to have 2 more kids.


steve

 

[Mimi]

Just jumping in with a quick note, to argue the "this is a man vs. woman issue" nonsense.

I am a woman, and *I* am anti-abortion, with the exception of a few extreme cases. Men FATHER these children. Children in which the mother, excersizing her right to freedom of choice, has aborted on her own free will. Where does the fathers say come in? I personally feel the father should have some say as well. Ultimately, yes, the woman is the one who must carry it. But many women have children aborted without the father having any knowledge of it what-so-ever.

Given that fact, I would say that men have just as much of a right to an opinion on this topic, as any woman does. Don't turn this into a sexist issue, when it's clearly not.

Mimi

 

[sincerity]

First of all how can you be anti-abortion let alone anti-choice? Seriously. who are you to say what's extreme???? the extreme cases that would lead to abortion are not few. there is no good reason to support a ban of abortion. no offense but that's the kind of self-richeous thinking that makes me wish youd have an unwanted pregnancy every nine months (i wont go into specifics cuz its will just get deleted again)
you may feel the father has some say but he sure as hell doesn't have to give birth or take on any responsibility or even admit his paternity. i would LOVE to see the roles reversed; men telling each other "why not just stop having sex, duh-uh", them living in fear that any day now these radical idiots will pass legislature that forces them to grow fertilized sperm into a baby, in their bodies even the day after, afraid to argue the fact that only schizophrenics would view this as murder because it is a "hot issue", watching other men whole heartedly support this shhhhhcrap. when they start dealing with that then they can relate.
Men say they think all men should take care of their kids. yet all men know and love men who don't. and if they knocked up someone they couldn't stand, or had an affair, or had to many to begin with or were broke, every man on here would deny paternity. Men - just be happy society lets you off guilt free
And by the way, i didnt turn it into a sexist issue, i just pointed out that none of them are ever going to get pregnant.
Yeah, it's alway a good idea to tell the father. cuz aaaaaaaalllll women have healthy relationships right?? ignorant!

Just jumping in with a quick note, to argue the "this is a man vs. woman issue" nonsense.

I am a woman, and *I* am anti-abortion, with the exception of a few extreme cases. Men FATHER these children. Children in which the mother, excersizing her right to freedom of choice, has aborted on her own free will. Where does the fathers say come in? I personally feel the father should have some say as well. Ultimately, yes, the woman is the one who must carry it. But many women have children aborted without the father having any knowledge of it what-so-ever.

Given that fact, I would say that men have just as much of a right to an opinion on this topic, as any woman does. Don't turn this into a sexist issue, when it's clearly not.

Mimi

 

[sincerity]

incedently

l

 

[Knox The Hatter]

To all those who think all abortions should be outlawed and the power of choice be taken away........let's reverse the scenario.

"The woman is pregnant, there are difficulties, dangers, whatever... too young, you fill in the specifics and circumstances as each has their own individual ones'.

You are told you HAVE to get an abortion, regardless of how you think or feel, period. It is the law and you must have an abortion.

How would you feel? No matter how much you wanted to have the baby, the law says........tough shit, say bye bye to baby inside.

You would not like that would you?

No matter what anyone says, regardless of what anyone thinks... no woman should be TOLD or ordered what she can and or cannot do with her body. Period.

Done deal."




Actually, this scenario DOES exist! In a far away land known as the People's Republic of China.
Jez, after you have your aneurysm, we will all probably ask the same question...what was the point? You probably would make your point much more effectively without yelling and screaming. You see, the thing is, people aren't seeing your point, they're only seeing a hair trigger temper and abusive behavior and yelling and screaming.
Sugar and not vinegar...

 

[Roseblossom]

Interesting

Jez...you see, the thing is, people aren't seeing your point, they're only seeing...yelling and screaming.
Sugar and not vinegar...[/COLOR]

I find it very interesting that you are trying to constrain Jez (who makes some very good points) but not the guys who are foaming at the mouth?

Everyone has strong views about this, but some points should be kept in mind.

1. Partial-birth abortion does not happen that often, and then it's because the baby or mom would be irrecovacably damaged.

2. The anti-abortion lobby is using this issue to whip up horror in the media in order to get leverage against any kind of abortion.

3. If you are horrified about what's being done to babies, check out some of the child-abuse prevention web sites, then get vocal about that! Here's a good one [http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/]

~Rose~ wanting every child to be a loved child

 

[sincerity]

e

 

[sincerity]

Re: Interesting

s

 

[Deleted member 2452]

answers to rosebloom

answers to her 3 points;
1) pro abortion bullshit
2) pro abortion bullshit
3) child abuse does exist, it is terrible, it is also a crime that should be punished. but i bet you would be right there in the front row de-crying the severity of the punishment that these assholes deserve!
besides, just cause child abuse exists, doesn't mean adoption isn't a viable answer. that's like saying; there is crime, so i won't put money in the bank. it's a red herring in this case.

steve