partial birth abortions

[the_Baron]

as you know, the president signed into law the prohibitive measure with respect to this procedure. it is being challenged as unconstitutional because it does not contain an exemption clause as regards the needs of the mother, and her health.

this notwithstanding, i happened to read today an explanation of the procedure. i ma thoroughly horrified and saddened that these take place.

did you know that at that term of pregnancy, a regular abortion procedure is not possible, because the baby's skeletel and muscular systems are too well formed and resistant to scraping as a means of ending the pregnancy.

so, the doctor will grab the baby's leg with a forcep, and pull the baby thru the birth canal, leaving the head still inside the womb. then, with a dull edged pliers-like tool, he will pierce the base of the skull, and begin to drain the brain fluids. eventually the skull will cave in, and the head will be pulled out.

keep in mind that in the case of early pregnancy, a fetus of this term is often able to survive with medical assistance. and yet, they are painfully killed with this procedure.

i don't know what world i live in anymore.

God have mercy on our souls and give us the strength and courage to protect His children.

 

[crydun]

I agree Baron. I'm glad that they are passing a law stopping that kind of behavior.

 

[TicklishSinner]

OMG

That is terrible, I knew you were allowed to have an abortion up to 24 weeks, but i just never asked how the procedure was done, and now that I know i am glad that will stop....but if they are that far along why dont they just have the baby and if they dont want it give it up for adoption?

 

[the_Baron]

very good point smurfette (you're ticklish and smart!).

i had the feeling that most people, like myself, just didn't know how that was done. and beyond a woman's choice issue, this just reeks of insanity.

 

[Marauder]

Before you get all bothered and political correctness stuffs all reason into its all-consuming maw, look at this: Partial Truth Abortion. Also, keep in mind that the procedure in question was never a legit choice unless the life of the human-to-be or the mother would be at grave risk unless it was carried out.

Every single one of you is oversimplifying the matter. In issues this serious, please collect more relevant information before you start screaming your gut feelings, because they were most likely manipulated by the presentation of the issue. Stay sharp or be a tool.

 

[Knox The Hatter]

My personal feelings and opinion: I believe in the availability of abortion in cases where the life of the mother is in danger, or rape/incest, and maybe other extenuating circumstances. I don't look kindly on people who stop a beating heart because the pregnancy would inconvenience them from continuing their rabid devotion to physical fitness activities, or with their active sex life, or that it interfered with their life in any other circumstances. Use contraception, that's what it's there for. After that, unless you have a very good reason, the only thing you're doing is stopping a beating heart.
Just my opinion. Politically, I think prohibiting abortion across the board is a mindless, dangerous thing to do, for reasons I shouldn't have to state. I do think, though, that the best way to change the trend of 'convenience abortions' is for people to set better examples, for a stigma to attach itself to the very concept. Not easy! Sure beats some unfortunate woman hiring the services of some degenerate wielding sharp edged tools on a kitchen table at three in the morning, though.
From what I understand, Partial Birth Abortion is mainly a red herring. It doesn't occur as much as it's made out to be...

 

[omega]

Before you get all bothered and political correctness stuffs all reason into its all-consuming maw, look at this: Partial Truth Abortion. Also, keep in mind that the procedure in question was never a legit choice unless the life of the human-to-be or the mother would be at grave risk unless it was carried out.

Every single one of you is oversimplifying the matter. In issues this serious, please collect more relevant information before you start screaming your gut feelings, because they were most likely manipulated by the presentation of the issue. Stay sharp or be a tool.

I read the article. I have to say that I am horrified. Just because the correct medical terms are embryo and fetus makes it not human? Come on! From the moment of conception that cell which quickly begins dividing into more cells is a human being. If it is not a human being then that creates the possibility that my wife could give birth to a carrot.

When are we going to protect ALL humans?

I also believe that women have the right to choose. Before a woman is pregnant she has the right to choose not to have sex.

 

[Ticklemmmeeeeee]

Knox the hatter...amen to what u said.

Some of you know this about me , others will soon if you read this. I had a baby when I was 16 and being prego at that age was a shock to me as well as others. (yes, I was naieve to think that I could have sex and not get prego). I was approached by many friends and relatives and shockingly and most disturbing of all my own mother to consider abortion as the only solution.

What a life lesson she was instilling eh?

I am amazingly ecstatic that I went with my gut instinct of not even ever considering it an option and I had my baby girl who is 10 today and the most beautiful person I know 🙂

I know I am off topic but the thought of abortion in any form makes me feel physically ill so I had to post something on the upside....I pray all the time for little lost souls that never had a chance to come into this world and experience life. Tragic.

 

[sugarmouse]

i respect anyone who has a baby at a young age, or when they werenot prepared for it, to be a parent takes a special person i think.🙂
i do agree with abortion tho. definitly not the type mentioned above!! but if a woamn does not want a baby. then i dnt think its fair to bring one into the world.

 

[asutickler]

Barring some sort of late-term medical emergency in which the mother's life is at stake, I don't see a reason for this barbaric procedure to be performed. EVER. Certainly there are other legitimate reasons for wanting an abortion, such as incest, rape, etc... but such pregnancies should be terminated LONG before the stage in which a partial-birth abortion becomes necessary.


Yuck.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

i do happen to know a little about this issue

so save your oh, so open minded corrections maurader.
in almost all cases, the "baby" could live at the time of birth, if the killing doesn't happen. partial birth abortions are done only in the late 3rd trimester, 7, 8, or 9 month.
if the bitch carrying doesn't want the baby any more then give it up for adoption! this is totally unneccesary.

steve

 

[TickledToDeath]

Regardless of anything......

......no ONE or group should dictate what a woman can and cannot do to or with her body. While there should be strict limitations on "WHEN" one can have an abortion, you cannot make it a LAW that you cannot have one. Wether or not abortion is outlawed or not, girls or women will find a way to have it done somewhere. Then, in that case, two lives could be lost. Circumstances should be considered on how a woman gets impregnated not just the fact that she IS.
You cannot have a blanket solution or law in this matter.
Too many variables.
Don't say either that there are many worthy parents out there that are waiting for a child and cannot have one on there own. There are far more children/babies without a home then there are wouldbe parents in waiting.
Too much suffering in this world. Too much greed.

Pro choice is the only way.


TTD

 

[sugarmouse]

i agree tickled to death..studyin sociology iv seen so many unwanted kids...born to people who really dont care a damn about them, ending up in care...it makes me really sad.
i dnt think there should b anyone able to dictate whether a woman can have an abortion or not, becoming a parent isnt something that should be taken lightly.
i had an experience where my boyfriend purposely removed the condom half way thru sex, when he was sure i wouldnt notice, resulting in me getttin pregnant, for the reason he did not want me to leave him to go to university.
he had no job, we had no money and i was due to start university in 2months time...i did not want a baby in the slightest and had an abortion doen privately within the first 8weeks. i dont regret it at all however i had the fairly new 'abortion pill' and i did not know at the time that women in america have died from takin it....
as a consequence of taking it i have a ruptured womb and may not b able to have children at all now..my body reacted badly to the medication....also although i had private treatment,,,i have been advised to take action for medical negligence due to the way i was treated throughout. this experience makes me feel scared when i hear abotu how many (especially younger )women seem to regard abortion as a form of emergency contraception

 

[ticklebutton]

Knox the hatter...amen to what u said.

I pray all the time for little lost souls that never had a chance to come into this world and experience life...

I pray all the time for little lost souls who have come into this world and are living lives of horrifying abuse & misery.

There are worse things than death.

Button

p.s. Ticklemmmeeeeee, I'm so glad your little girl was born into a life with you!

 

[sushi854]

I tend to be liberal on most social issues, but I will admit to having problems with this type of abortion. I will agree that a woman has a right over her own body, but I also think that a viable fetus should have certain rights as well. If a woman is eight months pregnant and decides she doesn't want the baby inside her anymore, that is her right. However, if there is a reasonable chance that the fetus can survive on its own, I think it should be given that chance, barring of course a situation in which the mother's life would be threatened by delivering an intact baby. Personally, I feel that the idea of third trimester abortions as a means of birth control is about as ridiculous as bringing infants back to the hospital to be killed if, after having the baby, the parents decide they don't want it and adoption is not an option. There are always exceptions, but generally I feel that the choice should be made earlier on in the pregnancy, if not before.

 

[Marauder]

Re: i do happen to know a little about this issue

i do happen to know a little about this issue

Already I have to say that I sincerely doubt you, Sir. You don't know anything about the issue, as far as can be made out, Sir. If this is incorrect, please tell us what you know about this issue, Sir. Because this post I'm replying to shows that you don't even know what we're talking about, Sir. So why don't you tell us what you know about late-term abortions, SIR?

so save your oh, so open minded corrections

Open-mindedness is an accusation? Also, you want me to stop posting my oppinion? Dou you want a "SHUT UP!" - "NO, YOU SHUT UP!!!" contest? I'd win, bet you 50 grand. Heh.

maurader.

M-A-R-A-U-D-E-R. "Maurader" is my janitor. We get confused often. It's the roman profile and devilish good looks we share, I suppose.

in almost all cases, the "baby" could live at the time of birth, if the killing doesn't happen.

Prove it. That's a load of nonsense. Doctors don't kill babies with this kind of procedure unless the life(s) of either mother or child or, most likely, both would be in danger during a birth.

partial birth abortions are done only in the late 3rd trimester, 7, 8, or 9 month.

Partial birth abortions are called "late term abortions". The term "Partial birth abortion" is a media created catchy phrase that doesn't have any medical or legal relevance.

if the bitch carrying doesn't want the baby any more then give it up for adoption! this is totally unneccesary.

Thank you for this heap of mysogynistic and totally wacko nonsense. You don't know ANY of those women, so you don't have the right to form an oppinion about them. Also, since you jumped into this discussion completely unprepared, please allow me to introduce you to Mr. Logic here: IF THEY DIDN'T WANT THE BABY, THEY'D HAVE ABORTED EARLIER! Abortion at such a late date is a massive and traumatic procedure. The woman undergoing it has to deal with the pretty invasive experience of WATCHING OR FEELING MECHANICAL STUFF GOING UP HER COOTER, LISTENING TO CRUNCHING, SUCKING AND WHIRRING AS HER BABY IS TORN TO SHREDS, FEELING THE TEARING HAPPENING INSIDE HER, AND THEN WATCHING OR AT LEAST FEELING HER FORMER BABY SLIDING OUT OF HER IN BLOODY CHUNKS. Sorry for screaming, but I think you'd be one to ignore the fact that the not-mother actually witnesses the procedure. No woman would do that just to get rid of an unwanted baby, because at the point late-term abortion is carried out, it would be easier to just give birth.

Your turn, Sir.

 

[TickledToDeath]

I tend to be liberal on most social issues, but I will admit to having problems with this type of abortion. I will agree that a woman has a right over her own body, but I also think that a viable fetus should have certain rights as well.

If you ask a fetus a question, will he/she/it answer? No obviously. Actually the parents make all the decisions and are totally responsible for their child until age of 18 let alone a fetus inside a womans body.
Say for instance, a "Being", prior to birth, exists as an entity of ones true self, is asked buy "The Powers that Be" or "God" or whatever you want to call 'IT', "Do you want to exist is that world"?
Before you aswered, it was added that you would be deformed or have severe physical handicaps or deformaties or perhap be mentally retarded and need constant perpetual care for your entire existance being painfully traumatic and physically as well as financially burdenous to your wouldbe family........would you say, "SURE, hell yeah gimmie the pain and screw my folks or mom or .... or would you say, 'No, I don't want to live like that or subject my wouldbe parents
to such misery'.
Circumstances must be taken into consideration on a case by case basis in extreme situations.

If a woman is eight months pregnant and decides she doesn't want the baby inside her anymore, that is her right. However, if there is a reasonable chance that the fetus can survive on its own, I think it should be given that chance, barring of course a situation in which the mother's life would be threatened by delivering an intact baby. Personally, I feel that the idea of third trimester abortions as a means of birth control is about as ridiculous as bringing infants back to the hospital to be killed if, after having the baby, the parents decide they don't want it and adoption is not an option. There are always exceptions, but generally I feel that the choice should be made earlier on in the pregnancy, if not before.

NO mother/woman should be having THOUGHTS let alone the abortion itself at 8 months. However, within the first 3 months, keyword, WITHIN, a fetus is just that, a fetus. No knowledge of its' existance no thought certainly no sense of "reason" and its' being aborted or not lies solely on the MOTHER and nobody else. Certainly no 1 person or a group who disagree with another woman or group of. The methods of abortion are "primative-like to say the least. They should be...changed. If you even had the ability to make a conscious decision within the womb(I would like to meet that person for starters)and you knew that you had a life of misery ahead of you for decades and decades to come, would you choose to live or not live?
A fetus cannot respond one way or another. What if the first words amazingly out of the mouth as a sonogram was being performed were, "let me die", would you abide by its wishes?
I agree with you that the methods of abortion are hideos. I agree that time limits should be set for the procedure but the bottom line here is that the decision HAS to lie solely with the individual woman.
Pro-Choice, Freedom OF Choice. Anything less is "Socialistic".

 

[desdemona]

Well said, Mar.

I normally stay away from such controversial topics, but since I responded to Hal's earlier thread on abortion, I'll reiterate a few points of my own.

As a veterinarian, I perform abortions more frequently than I care to mention. Sometimes unwittingly, sometimes on purpose. Last week, I aborted three puppies who were midway through gestation. Would these month old fetuses have served outside the uterus? No. Was there mineralization of skeletal structures? No. At this stage, if I hadn't spayed her, she could have gone on to miscarry or to give birth to "stunted" puppies. In this case, I knew the dog was pregnant after anesthetizing her. I could palpate the fetuses. And in this case, I also knew the dog had been bred at least once. How? Because the owner had called and explained how her dogs had tied and asked for a mismate shot. It has such a lovely name...ladies, how would you like it if you could have a do-over? Oooops...sorry, didn't mean to mate with YOU... Like the morning after pill, it makes implantation impossible. It also carries major ramifications for the female - possible uterine scarring and risk of uterine infection. Did I mention that the two dogs that mated were brother and sister? Did I mention that the female has a major birth defect (because this owner had let mother and son mate previously) that made getting pregant/giving birth life threatening to this animal? Not to mention that I had seen this puppy when it was 4 months old (over a year ago...) and had told the owner that if she did not spay it, she at least needed to repair the life threatening hernia NOW before it gained more weight. I was cursing human stupidity all during the lengthy procedure. Increased risk of bleeding from the engorged uterus. A hernia the size of my fist right next to the dog's diaphragm. The dog did poorly under anesthesia and it took a lot just to stabilize her and keep her alive to finish the spay/abortion/hernia repair. And she has the nerve to complain about her bill

One last thought on "partial birth" - although I don't know exactly what that term means for humans. I can tell you in large animal, one of my last cases involved a cow who had gone into labor 12 hours earlier - only to have the calf "stuck" - breech, with the tail hanging out. Now the owner decides to give it time...and waits from noon until midnight to call for assistance. Once there, I have two options: help the cow deliver a (now dead) calf. Or perform a fetotomy. What is a fetotomy? Basically, with a curved blade, cutting up the full sized calf into small enough pieces that I can retrieve manually. Not an option to leave a dead calf hanging there to rot. Otherwise, the cow is toast (euthanasia) and she can't even send it to slaughter (apologies to the vegetarians reading).

My sadness over this debate: from both angles, bad decisions based on ignorance by owners (humans). We're supposed to be the ones with cognitive powers here giving us "superiority" over other species. In both cases, waiting only endangered the "mother" - I can only imagine the moral dilemma that human doctors face. I hate facing these acts, but at least I know I'm trying to save ONE of my patients.

And btw, steve, I can biologically refer to my patient as a bitch. But I refrain from calling the client/owner that. Don't insult the dogs by using that term to generically refer to female humans whom you dislike.

 

[omega]

About 5 years ago I heard in person a young lady in her 20's speak to a group of people. This young lady suffered from cerbral palsy. She needed a crutch to walk, had characteristic muscle spasms, and her speech was understandable although you needed to pay close attention. Let me say that in all of this she is glad that she is alive. She accepts her physical condition and lives her life so as to be a blessing to everyone she meets.

What is the reason for her condition?

She survived an abortion.

I don't mean her child was aborted.

I mean a doctor was attempting to kill her while she was still in her mothers womb. She came out alive, the nurses stepped in and immediatly began critical care. She was adopted by a wonderful couple and is happy that the abortion was not successful.

She is not the only survivor of abortion. I'm sure you can find out more about this somewhere on the web.

My wife and I have a two year old daughter that we adopted. She is the joy of our lives. She would have been considered a difficult to place infant. Not because of any physical or mental handicap, but simply because of the mental health history of her birth mother and grandparents. It may or may not effect her. Either way she is a blessing and we thank God that she was not aborted. We can not imagine our family without her.

If a pregnant woman does not want to have a baby, my wife and I would love to adopt again. I know of many who would willing adopt a child. No child must come into the world unwanted. As long as my wife and I are able to adopt, every child should be considered a wanted child.

 

[sushi854]

I'm certainly not suggesting that a fetus is capable of making choices. Parents have the right and obligation to make choices for their children until age 18 in the US, although these rights are wisely limited to prohibit parents from deciding that their minor children should be killed for the sake of convenience. Then again, there is the issue of the safety of the mother and the issue of potentially severe mental and/or physical disabilities, in which case any parent would have difficult options to face. This whole thing is such a complicated issue. I agree with TTD that there cannot be a blanket ban on the procedure. I also agree that most women facing an unplanned pregnancy are not thinking of abortion at 8 months, but hey, you never know. I will admit to being guilty of not fully informing myself of the nature of the controversy before responding. My earlier post simply stated my belief that late-term, "partial-birth" abortion of healthy fetuses is not an acceptable form of birth control. I really had no idea of whether this was a common practice or not, as Marauder has dramatically pointed out that such an idea was ridiculous. If the use of this procedure is already limited to instances of medical necessity, what exactly is the issue here? I'm not disputing anyone who thinks that a complete ban on the procedure is unfair and ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

mr marauder

when i read your post to me, i became so fucking enraged, i had an attack of blurred vission, and dizziness. suffice to say that i shall not engage in a debate with a person of such low caliber as you.

i am a nurse, and worked in a hospital where abortions were done. my own wife had two abortions behind my back. i have done much studying on the subject, as part of therapy, and nursing training. so yes i am extreemly knowledgeable. whether you want to recognise it or not.
and frankly your threatening me that you as a moderator will win a "you shut up" debate shows you are a coward of the worst sort!

steve

*sigh...GR Steve*

 

[the_Baron]

steve - i feel bad that our views have got some of us in a pissing match. but i do appreciate greatly your contributions. keep on truckin'.

ticklemeeee - i am very happy to hear about your decision some years ago. and i thought you were just a tickle machine.

 

[Deleted member 2452]

steve - i feel bad that our views have got some of us in a pissing match. but i do appreciate greatly your contributions. keep on truckin'.

ticklemeeee - i am very happy to hear about your decision some years ago. and i thought you were just a tickle machine.

thank you for your kind words, and support gigglebaron.
i appriciate your contributions as well. you are one of the good people.

steve

 

[crydun]

I feel I must jump in here again. six years after her 5th baby was miscarried, my mother became pregnant with me. It was very risky and the doctors weren't at all happy about it. They gave my mother the option of aborting me. My mother chose not to. She wanted a baby sooo badly. As a result, I was born(take that as a good or bad thing, whichever you prefer 🙂 I was a very sick baby. I don't know how many of you have read my Beating the Odds story but I am very lucky to be alive. 40-50 grand mal seizures a day is taxing on an infant. As a result, I now have permanent brain damage that will never be corrected. But, I"M STILL ALIVE!! My mother gave me the gift of life when the odds were against her and I'm grateful for it.

the moral of the story: If God wants you to be born, it will happen. Doctors and hospitals can't overturn the Power of God.

Thank you!!

 

[TickledToDeath]

They gave my mother the option of aborting me. My mother chose not to.

Key points here are:

"They gave my mother the OPTION of abotring me". And
"My mother CHOSE not to".

Case and point. No debates. No arguements.


The right to CHOOSE. That is the, THE, bottom line.


TTD