Remember Guantanamo!

[BigJim]

Re: Amen, Prime

That said, I am appalled by the statements made by Hal, calling my country a "self proclaimed savior of democracy", comparing my nation to a South American or African Despotic regime. I take MAJOR offense to your statements Hal. While it is true that The United States is constitutionally committed to grant a fair hearing in a swift manner, while it is true that even the accused have rights (often more rights than the free) these pleasantries are ALWAYS turned aside when matters of national security are threatened.

Phatteus, if you took exception to Hal's comments, you probably took exception to mine as well. Well that's okay, I can understand that. But before you form an opinion of me based on the comments I made, I have to ask you something. There is something you very much need to read about the recent 2003 Gulf War II, which is pretty important when it comes to understanding where people like myself and Hal are coming from. Before you get angry at me and condemn me as yet another "American badmouther" please read it and then let me know what you think. I promise that this one won't be a yawningly long as the others and will be over quicker.

 

[BigJim]

To be fair to Hal its not fair to have someone throw WW2 happenings at him just becuase he is german. Its not a fair statement to throw into his face. People cant be held responsible for what their predecors may have done. By the way it is an off topic discussion for this thread. Sorry just trying to show i can see both sides fairly.

Absoloutely correct Prime. It is also fair to say that nothing about which I or Hal writes can be laid at the doors of people like yourself, JoBelle, Kis123 or ANY ordinary American who is just seeking to have a happy life and make a decent living. I'm pretty sure that Hal would agree with that.

When I write the things I do that affronts many Americans so much, I am NOT attacking them for anything other than the refusal to look at everything equally. Quite often the Americans I speak to don't give a damn what is done to get the revenge they've been manipulated into believeing is due to them. I don't hold them responsible for the staggering list of war crimes that were committed by American and British troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, I don't hold them responsible for the blatant double-standards and heavy-handedness of American laws that are imposed or broken on the whim of American politicians. I certainly don't assosciate them in any way with the more despicable acts of their country's politicians. Why should I? 99.99999999999% of the time these acts are done totally without public knowledge.

One thing I do promise ALL Americans who have been outraged by my anger at people like Dick cheney, Colin Powell, George Bush senior and Junior and Storming Norman, is that I'll explain exactly why (and you just know that it's gonna be in graphic detail) why it is that I'm ranting. I'm not just some empty-headed leftist, who takes any opportunity he can to bash anything American. The friends I've made from America on the TMF are as great a friends as any I've made in real life. I love them just as much as I love that which is called "Americana" for the ballsy, upbeat attitude to life that it show. I won't justr scream my accusations and then run out the room like some schoolboy who's just shouted an insult round the sixth form common room door.

 

[BigJim]

Re: Amen, Prime

Guantanamo is, I'm sure, a terrible place. The practices there are barbaric by American standards. WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S IN CUBA? The prisoners held in GTMO are not to be confused with the prisoners held on Riker's, or in Sing-Sing, or in any other US prison facility. The prisoners of GTMO are treated with accordance to the Geneva convention, NOT the US Constitution. NEVER get those two confused.

Sorry Phatteus, but that's blatantly untrue. The prisoners at Guantanomo were never accorded POW status and they were never given the rights they were afforded should they have been. They were political prisoners, many of whom have done jack-shit to any Americans or America itself. More will be released with no charges in the future, you can count on it.

 

[BigJim]

I don't think there's a better place to live in this world. And regardless to the group of people who think my race should "go back where we came from", I'm from the United States of America.

Agreed and I'd love to live there. That isn't because the government is morally good, because it isn't. It's because I love most of the people, the customs, the spirit and just the damn PLACE, yanno?

I love America and Americans. The one thing I don't like about Americans is their inherrant sense of national righteousness. You remember the 70 and 60's when Britain was giving grants to certain African countries? The marxist governments wanted the money for more bombs, grenades, AK's and bullets. We witheld a few of them and they, knowing on which side their bread was buttered, screamed to the liberal press about the blatant racism of the imperialist British. The first people to come down on our heads like a ton of steaming shit, were the Americans, threatening to withdraw certain trade deals should our attitude persist. So the grants go ahead and the money goes towards perpetuating the misery, war and armed conflict that wracked the continent and still does.

The reason I mention this isn't because it's unusual. It's because it wonderfully demonstrated the double-standards that the Federal Government is only too happy to play whenever it pleases them. So no, I'm not pissed off at American people. I feel sorry for them, living as they do under a government that tramples their rights just as quickly as it does those of foreign prisoners, and waves the almighty "It's for national security" argument in the face of the world whenever it breaks the Geneva Convention, international law, or it's own Constitution. None of my harsh words are directed at you. they are directed at about twenty people who sit in public office.

Show me a perfect country and I might be willing to live there. Until then..........

I can't because there has never been one invented. When and if there is a eprfect country, it'll be it's people and not it's leaders who made it that way. 🙂

 

[BigJim]

Well, to make it more clear, what I meant was this. The majority of people over there think that we are "infidels" .....they hate us, and they hate our freedoms. They would kill us all given the chance. If these were a peace loving people, I wouldn't call them barbarians...But the middle east is the most hopeless realm on earth. The fighting there will never stop.

Krokus, you are not a stupid person, so I CANNOT believe you just said that.

You are generalising about millions of people and are quite frankly, talking right out of your arse. Most Middle Easterners don't care one damn about hating American freedoms. They don;'t give a shit! They're too busy doing their jobs, raising their families and trying to mae a living.

That is quite possibly one of the most fatuous statements I've ever heard you make.

 

[Krokus]

Krokus, you are not a stupid person, so I CANNOT believe you just said that.

You are generalising about millions of people and are quite frankly, talking right out of your arse. Most Middle Easterners don't care one damn about hating American freedoms. They don;'t give a shit! They're too busy doing their jobs, raising their families and trying to mae a living.

That is quite possibly one of the most fatuous statements I've ever heard you make.

Good to know im famous. When all I see on tv are arabs burning American flags, I tend to form my own opinions. of course, thats just what the American media chooses to show, that and that only, so that is a factor. The rest of my post, I feel, was correct. ...In my mind.

Oh, and also, if you had noticed, at the bottom of that post I made it clear that I was NOT talking about everyone in the middle east. Only the bad apples. It's just sad that there are so many bad apples in that region.

 

[JoBelle]

Jim Bob

I need a bibliography of your sources please. I'm still waiting for you to answer me in the elections thread.

I'm amazed most days that you know so many facts that no one else has ever heard of. 😉

Jo

 

[BigJim]

Let's see if we can apply that above phrase to the people currently living in the South. Yep, there are still some redneck types out there, but not all of us need to labled racists and haters just because of where we live.

I can see the point you're making Joby and I agree with it. People should never be lumped into one amorphous group.

I have a question to ask you, which may sound flippant, but I mean it with total sincerity. I quoted once in one of my long threads that a combination of indiscriminate bombing and sanctions had cost the lives of a million Iraqi children, by I think, the middle of 1995 or 96. (Can't remember which.) Later and in another thread you said to me something to the effect of...

"Last I heard you were saying we Americans were responsible for the deaths of a million babies."

Closely followed by...

"I could not believe you said that! You. Who I thought I trusted..." (Paraphrasing your words slightly Joby, but that was the gist of them.)

Now if you dislike it when non-Americans lump you all into one category, why did you do it yourself with respect to the remark I made? Why would you assosciate "all Americans" with an accusation I laid at the door of half a dozen politicians, who really don't care one iota about the plight of normal Americans?


I don't assosciate people like you, Venray, Ann and Drew, Myriads, kis123, Krous or anyone else with Guantanomo Bay, any more than I do with a beneficial trade deal that creates British jobs. I assosciate you with you. The lady. The one who's I've spent endless hours discussing methods of torture and evilness with.



I have to believe from what I've both studied and personally witnessed, that it seems to be drummed into Americans from the first time they draw breath that "any insult against Your Country is an insult to you! Fight it to the death!". That is a desperately sad and unfair situation, because it becomes impossible to focus on desperately important things wen the issue of national identity has been so deeply ingrained. The people who programmed it in don't giv e ashit about patriotism. They care about using it as a psychological tool that prevents Americans from toelrating critiscism or believeing that anything their country does could possibly be without justification. It's like in Animal Farm when they find one of the rules has been canged from...
No animal shall kill another to...
No animal shallkill another... without cause.

For without cause, read In the interests of national security.

 

[BigJim]

Good to know im famous. When all I see on tv are arabs burning American flags, I tend to form my own opinions. of course, thats just what the American media chooses to show, that and that only, so that is a factor. The rest of my post, I feel, was correct. ...In my mind.

Oh, and also, if you had noticed, at the bottom of that post I made it clear that I was NOT talking about everyone in the middle east. Only the bad apples. It's just sad that there are so many bad apples in that region.

There's the crux of it... "When all I see on tv". Krokus, anyone who takes CNN or Fox as their source for all their information when basing an opinion on a people who live nearly 10,000 miles away, their logic is non-existent.

CNN are as biased and downright bullshitting as al-Jazeera ever were.

 

[Krokus]

Yes, I will say that definetly, our media swings one way and one way only, lol...I lead a very busy life though, and quite frankly, I don't have time to do any other research than what I read and watch.

 

[BigJim]

Jim Bob

I need a bibliography of your sources please. I'm still waiting for you to answer me in the elections thread.

I'm amazed most days that you know so many facts that no one else has ever heard of. 😉

Jo

Yup, I'll follow with that as soon as possible. 🙂 That's the very least I can do Jo. I'm about to go to work on nights, but after tonight I have four days off. I'll bash out a comprehensive list then and post it.

I know you meant that last comment with 10 pounds of tongue in cheek, but I'll answer it seriously. The reason I have such a different view of things is because I just thought once... "What IF there are two sides to evry story?" I soon found out there are often at least three, never mind two. I started reading and reading and reading and reading... reading till my arse had gone to sleep and my eyes were hanging out on stalks. It doesn't take hardly any effort to find stuff that isn't "sanctioned" by official news agencies. After that it's a matter of deciding for yourself what is bullshit and what isn't. Either something has supporting evidence or it doesn't. Many things proved to be false, but many things equally proved to be surprisingly (and horrifyingly) true.

 

[BigJim]

Yes, I will say that definetly, our media swings one way and one way only, lol...I lead a very busy life though, and quite frankly, I don't have time to do any other research than what I read and watch.

And yet you still believe that that is enoug information to call them "barbarians" and to decide that they hate your freedoms enough to kill any American without compunction? Krokus dude, you're brainwashed!

If you think that's untrue, answer me this: Just what sort of prat would you think an Arab to be if he formed his opinion of you and other Americans purely from what he sees and hears on al-Jazeera? He'll hate your guts, think you hate and disrespect his culture and want to kill you and yours on sight because you're an infidel barbarian. In short, you'll both be the same.

 

[kis123]

Hello Big Jim;

I think it's time to get some issues on the table. First of all, I'd like to deal with a portion of your last post;
"Most Middle Easterners don't care one damn about hating American freedoms. They don;'t give a shit! They're too busy doing their jobs, raising their families and trying to mae a living."

I agree with you on this one. I've been trying to tell people that for years. Too many Chuck Norris movies portraying Middle-easterners as the bad guys have gotten some of America looking in the wrong direction. Also, because of the behind the scenes politics being played at their expense and in the name of so-called patriotism, I really couldn't blame them if they did hate us. Our government has given them plenty of reason to. How many of our own soldiers have been killed lately in the name of protecting our freedom? If you want our freedoms protected, do something domestically because our freedoms are being lost everyday behind our backs in Congress while we wave the flag and cheer this mess on. They are using fear to undercut our Constitutional rights and we're letting them.

I have had direct dealings with the Middle-east community for over fifteen years in America. They hate our politics, but most try to get along with us so they can make a peaceable living. I never asked anyone to like me, but I do expect respect from them. And I get it, too.

Two things happened during the 9/11 crisis that basically made me sick. First of all, many Arabs were cheering what may be the most devasting blow ever handed to America in our history. I thought that pretty disgusting. What made me even sicker was that Middle Easterners had to remove their turbans and the women had to change their traditional clothing in order to be safe from attacks made by American citizens. Who ever told us two wrongs ever made a right?

Even though I said I love my country, don't discount me as naive or ignorant of the garbage this country has gotten into (past, present, and future). Part of my ancestors went through hundreds of years of slavery and the other part were either killed off or herded into reservations like cattle. Let's call a spade a spade...all of it's wrong, wrong, wrong

However, just because Americans want to defend their beloved country, it doesn't mean that we should be getting beaten over the heads for it. You won't sit idolly by and allow someone to beat up on your country, right or wrong. Many folks take it personally.

This is kis123 waiting for the other shoe to drop.......

Once again, back to my previous post:
Show me a perfect country and I'll go live there!

 

[Haltickling]

GAH!

For the love of God.

I understand you. I gave validity to your post.

You just aren't grasping the point.

🙄
Jo

Dito! 😉

I'm sorry that my reply to you came over in harsher words than I intended. Probably I was already in "attack mode" when I wrote them, because of all the attacks directed at me. I beg forgiveness for the tone, however the objective contents of my reply remain valid.

 

[kis123]

quote:
Originally posted by JoBelle
"Let's see if we can apply that above phrase to the people currently living in the South. Yep, there are still some redneck types out there, but not all of us need to labled racists and haters just because of where we live."

I can tell you racism isn't exclusive to the South. I've never been south in my life, but I've experienced plenty of racism right here in the good ol' Northeast/Midwest. Oh, and have met more than my share of redneck types. They don't just drink moonshine with rotted teeth and drive old pickup trucks anymore. Many are white (or red) collared professionals who drive BMW's that have cheated me out of jobs or my children out of an education.

Oh, and Krokus, I have a question:

If Middle-easterners burning a flag on CNN bothers you, what about an American citizen who burns it right in front of your courthouse? That happened in my state a couple of years ago. That was one of a very few times in my life that I wasn't proud to be an American.

 

[Krokus]

quote:


Oh, and Krokus, I have a question:

If Middle-easterners burning a flag on CNN bothers you, what about an American citizen who burns it right in front of your courthouse? That happened in my state a couple of years ago. That was one of a very few times in my life that I wasn't proud to be an American.

Yea, thats pretty disturbing. In many ways we are our own worst enemy.

 

[Krokus]

And yet you still believe that that is enoug information to call them "barbarians" and to decide that they hate your freedoms enough to kill any American without compunction? Krokus dude, you're brainwashed!

If you think that's untrue, answer me this: Just what sort of prat would you think an Arab to be if he formed his opinion of you and other Americans purely from what he sees and hears on al-Jazeera? He'll hate your guts, think you hate and disrespect his culture and want to kill you and yours on sight because you're an infidel barbarian. In short, you'll both be the same.

First of all, I must make this clear again. I did NOT mean "all" Middle Eastern People were that way. I was simply making a statement about the people in the middle east that are that way. The terrorists. Now I know that not everyone in that prison on the bay is guilty. But the fact is is that there are, whether you wan't to believe it or not, hostile terrorists there that have been detained and put there. It's like our prison system. There are people who have been sentenced to death in this country that are innocent. Does that mean we should release everyone? Start over in that department? Give everyone 2 or 3 trials? No. You have to take the bad with the good...or at least thats the way I see it. Sacrifices must be made to ensure safety. As for the media comment, I can't argue there, your right.

 

[JoBelle]

I'm too bewildered at Jim to answer....not sure what you're aiming at.......try a PM.

Joby

 

[BigJim]

If Middle-easterners burning a flag on CNN bothers you, what about an American citizen who burns it right in front of your courthouse? That happened in my state a couple of years ago. That was one of a very few times in my life that I wasn't proud to be an American.

I know that was addressed to the K-Man, b ut I've commented on this before, in a different thread.

Some people from the flag-burning lobby have legitimate points to make. However setting fire to a flag is, in my opinion, a rather childish and vapid act. All it does is make you look like a complete prick. I personally think these people would be better of trying to put their arguments across in a far more constructive and sensible way.

 

[BigJim]

How many of our own soldiers have been killed lately in the name of protecting our freedom? If you want our freedoms protected, do something domestically because our freedoms are being lost everyday behind our backs in Congress while we wave the flag and cheer this mess on. They are using fear to undercut our Constitutional rights and we're letting them.

Quite possibly that was the most intelligent and considered thing anyone has ever said in discussion with me. That is only MY opinion of course. 😀

The biggest evil ever perpetrated on American citizens is the Patriot Act. Despite the crap that it's proponents try to tell you, it's nothing more than a carte blanche to remove all rights and freedoms from anyone the government care to shit on, simply by invoking the demon of national security.

I have had direct dealings with the Middle-east community for over fifteen years in America. They hate our politics, but most try to get along with us so they can make a peaceable living. I never asked anyone to like me, but I do expect respect from them. And I get it, too.

I'm sure you earn it fairly from them. You certainly have from me.

Two things happened during the 9/11 crisis that basically made me sick. First of all, many Arabs were cheering what may be the most devasting blow ever handed to America in our history. I thought that pretty disgusting. What made me even sicker was that Middle Easterners had to remove their turbans and the women had to change their traditional clothing in order to be safe from attacks made by American citizens. Who ever told us two wrongs ever made a right?

I'm not certain what they showed in America, but over here we saw candlelit vigils in Tehran, the capital of Iran. Iranian Muslims (who traditionally hate Americans and British slightly more than being buried in a pig-skin) were lighting candles and praying for the victims of 9/11. Banners were displayed for the cameras in the streets...
AMERICA! We weep for your fallen.
Americans your dead are in our prayers.
America you are not alone! We pray for you today.

Okay, here's a question to ponder...

Afghanistan lost in the region of five thousand innocent civillians killed when we attacked them. Iraqi civillian deaths numbered about seven thousand during the opening stages of Gulf War 2. Add to this around double the number of maimings, woundings and injuries. And what was this done in the name of? 9/11 wasn't it? the attack on America that sickened the world and shook people to their core. Well there's quite a bit of sickening yet to come and it'll start when I post my thread about 9/11. My workload on this subject has just doubled as well, because it's now become necessary to donate another entire thread to the invasion of Iraq. Foremost among this will be a reference to the first Gulf War. Anyone here seen Total Recall with Arnold? Remember the bit where the rebel leader comes out of the guy's stomach to help Quaid overcome his amnesia? Remember the disgusting sight? Well I've just come across some photographs of Iraqi children that make that look positively pretty. What caused it? The RAF and USAF dropping depleted uranium on Iraq during the first Gulf War, that's what. Couple this with a 700% increase in cancer and Iraq leaping from gazillionth to first in the league tables for occurances of childhood leukemia, and you just have to wonder what exactly it is our boys are fighting for. Aren't we supposed to be the moral ones? Aren't we supposed to be fighting for freedom and peace? Aren't we supposed to be the ones with moral right on our side?

Even though I said I love my country, don't discount me as naive or ignorant of the garbage this country has gotten into (past, present, and future). Part of my ancestors went through hundreds of years of slavery and the other part were either killed off or herded into reservations like cattle. Let's call a spade a spade...all of it's wrong, wrong, wrong

I agree with you kis. 🙁 If you believe in being honest with yourself (as you evidently seem to 🙂) then please give this a cursory read when I post it, and decide for yourself what to do with the information.

and naive you certainly aren't.

However, just because Americans want to defend their beloved country, it doesn't mean that we should be getting beaten over the heads for it. You won't sit idolly by and allow someone to beat up on your country, right or wrong. Many folks take it personally.

I know they do, which is unfortunate. However all Americans that seek for the attacker of their freedoms in the Middle East, are thousands of miles off course. The destroyers of freedom and the perpetrators of 9/11 sit snugly within America's borders and have their salaries paid by your taxes.

This is kis123 waiting for the other shoe to drop.......

Hopefully not on my head. 😛 😉

 

[BigJim]

I'm too bewildered at Jim to answer....not sure what you're aiming at.......try a PM.

Joby

You mean PM you the source list? Sure, if that's what you want. 🙂

 

[BigJim]

First of all, I must make this clear again. I did NOT mean "all" Middle Eastern People were that way. I was simply making a statement about the people in the middle east that are that way. The terrorists.

Do you mean then that the vast majority of Arabs are that way? To quote you again...

Well, to make it more clear, what I meant was this. The majority of people over there think that we are "infidels" .....they hate us, and they hate our freedoms. They would kill us all given the chance. If these were a peace loving people, I wouldn't call them barbarians...But the middle east is the most hopeless realm on earth.

That is simply not true. The majority over there accept Christians as worshippers of the same god, not infidels. That phrase is usually used in the propaganda of the ruling regime. They don't hate you, they barely even know you. Your freedoms mean nothing to them, the price of grain and how many pints of milk the goat will render is far more important. They wouldn't kill us all either; Arabs are traditionally far more merciful to innocent bystanders than Christian troops; Richard the Lionheart and Saladin for one example. And believe it or not, they love and yearn for peace more strongly than any other set of people in the world. As for being a hopeless region, looked in your own back yard recently? The Patriot Act is dismembering your own civil liberties and human rights day by day, and your national leader is the one who lost the last election by virtue of collecting six hundred thousand fewer votes than his opponent. The powers that be were so determined that he should be in office though, that they rigged the elction, disenfranchised thousands of Democrat voters illegally, and when he STILL managed to lose, they disguised the result as a result of "the vagaries of the electoral college system". The whole world is hopeless K-Man, not just the region that local TV says are.

Now I know that not everyone in that prison on the bay is guilty. But the fact is is that there are, whether you wan't to believe it or not, hostile terrorists there that have been detained and put there. It's like our prison system. There are people who have been sentenced to death in this country that are innocent. Does that mean we should release everyone? Start over in that department? Give everyone 2 or 3 trials? No. You have to take the bad with the good...or at least thats the way I see it. Sacrifices must be made to ensure safety. As for the media comment, I can't argue there, your right.

So the abuse of the human rights of innocent people is fine, so long as some of them are guilty? Sorry Krokus, but that's incredibly immoral AND illegal. When citizens wanted the constitution, I presume they wanted it to protect innocents. They didn't want something that was there to placate them and sound find to waffle about on July the 4th, only to be completely discarded whenever it suited the government. The one thing that can NEVER be sacrificed if you want to be able to look yourself in the face, is the morality of your campaign. The whole point of the constitution was to defend innocent people against from the possibility of the government acting too strongly and without restraint. If you're going to waive it whenever one of your leaders (the people it's there to restrain) wails "national security!!!" then you might just as well take a good dump and wipe your arse with it.

No, it does not mean that you should release everyone. It means you have to obey some basic principles of human decency. Like access to legal advice, access to the red Cross, access to proper medical care, protection under human rights law. Or you could just be really crazy and mind-bendingly lenient and actually charge them with an offence, instead of holding them for two years without charge and no rights. To say that that Guantanomo is okay because a few of them are guilty, but it's okay to completely abuse the rights of the innocent in exchange, is right out of Hitler's diary and Mao's Little Red Book.
It's also a wonderful distraction because people will believe some incredible things. The link to al-Qaeda was never proven. The link between Saddam and al-Qaeda is easilly DIS-provable. Americans are completely ignoring the real problem bastards in their midst. Why does no-one ever ask George W. Bush about his business links with the bin-Ladens? Why do they not care that the bin-Ladens have been key investors in George Bush Senior's Carlyle Group, one of the major military contractors in the US? How could Osama have coordinated the 9/11 attacks when his kidneys were so fucked up, that he was on dialysis for the entire duration of the 9/11 crisis? Did one old man permenantly hooked up to a machine that was strainig his blood like cabbage-water, really mastermind the 9/11 attacks on which all these human rights abuses have been justified? Why did the Taliban leaders fly to Houston for discussions about building an oil pipeline across Afghanistan in 1997? Is it a coincidence that Enron, a big Bush financial backer was the consultant for the feasibility study? Is it a coincidence that Haliburton was the company who was supposed to build it; a company chaired by Dick Cheney, the current vice-president? Why in the days after 9/11 did a privately chartered jet, hired by the Bush family, chunter around the USA picking up members of the bin-Laden family and safely getting them out of the country with no interrogation, if they were such high suspects for the 9/11 atrocities? When the rest of America was grounded, why did this happen with no FBI investigation and no grand jury? What did the bin-Ladens do to deserve such VIP treatment? Why when 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi-Arabian, did Dubya bomb Afghanistan? I mean, I know the Air Force is pretty innacurate, but missing by several thousand miles? Or was it just too difficult for him to lay the blame at the feet of a country that supplies a quarter of America's oil and houses so many of his pop's business partners? Why is it that when the Taliban were toppled, the man Dubya appointed as the interim leader was the former president of an oil company? Why did Dubya then appoint a former Unocal consultant as the new American ambassador to Afghanistan? Is it then a massive coincidence that the much treasured oil pipeline went ahead like greased lightening?

Don't you think these are questions that need some honest answers, before you start laying the blame for uncivillised barbarity and terrorism at the door of anyone other than your own President? The man who was sooooooooooo born to be King that the real people who run your country fiddled the election and then ignored the result anyway to make sure he got into the White House?


The things I've just talked about are things I'm sure that most Americans have no knowledge of. Why? Because just like Truman Burbank, they accept the version of reality that they're presented with. (Actually that isn't a sydrome exclusive to Americans. The entire world is subject to it.) The information is there that can take apart at the seams, the things that America's spin-machine justifies it's immorality with. 9/11 is a classic example of an event where a 5 year old child could take apart the official version of events. 9/11's the biggie right now. It's the next thing I'm going to post about. I will take the official version apart so badly that it'll look like a gaff sail torn to shreds in a gale. More than any people in the world, Americans have the damn right to know this information. What they do with it, is up to them. No good ever came out of forcing something onto someone, even if the intention was to do good. The noblest cause can turn to badness unless it's accepted with a free heart.

 

[Moses25]

Well, to make it more clear, what I meant was this. The majority of people over there think that we are "infidels" .....they hate us, and they hate our freedoms. They would kill us all given the chance. If these were a peace loving people, I wouldn't call them barbarians...But the middle east is the most hopeless realm on earth.

Originally posted by BigJim
That is simply not true. The majority over there accept Christians as worshippers of the same god, not infidels. That phrase is usually used in the propaganda of the ruling regime. They don't hate you, they barely even know you. Your freedoms mean nothing to them, the price of grain and how many pints of milk the goat will render is far more important. They wouldn't kill us all either; Arabs are traditionally far more merciful to innocent bystanders than Christian troops; Richard the Lionheart and Saladin for one example. And believe it or not, they love and yearn for peace more strongly than any other set of people in the world. As for being a hopeless region, looked in your own back yard recently? The Patriot Act is dismembering your own civil liberties and human rights day by day, and your national leader is the one who lost the last election by virtue of collecting six hundred thousand fewer votes than his opponent. The powers that be were so determined that he should be in office though, that they rigged the elction, disenfranchised thousands of Democrat voters illegally, and when he STILL managed to lose, they disguised the result as a result of "the vagaries of the electoral college system". The whole world is hopeless K-Man, not just the region that local TV says are.

Incredible stuff there, Jimbo.

From what divine source do you hail? (the land of the BBC? 😛 )



Keep it coming, bro.

Cheers.😀

 

[Krokus]

Well Jim, while I see yor point about the middle east, and I agree, however, half of the things you said there...ahem...let's just say I'd need some proof, lol. However, I never even thought about the whole "why did dubya bomb afghanistan if the terrorists were saudi...." I never even thought about that. You have some interesting theories there...but where do you get these ideas from?

 

[BigJim]

Well Jim, while I see yor point about the middle east, and I agree, however, half of the things you said there...ahem...let's just say I'd need some proof, lol. However, I never even thought about the whole "why did dubya bomb afghanistan if the terrorists were saudi...." I never even thought about that. You have some interesting theories there...but where do you get these ideas from?

I read a lot mate. I've got two big threads on the make, and I'll be working for about 10 solid hours out of the next 24. (Working on my threads, not at my job.) One of the things I promised JoBelle was a list of sources, because she specially asked for one. You want me to PM it to you as well when it's ready?