TICKLING PIRACY - YOUR OPINION???

[HallowedGround5]

For those who've missed it, there's been a pretty heated/interesting discussion going-on in the video clips section. I thought I'd post my take on it in here. I'd love to here what everyone thinks.

HERE'S SOME ADVICE FROM SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN THROUGH IT, IN A DIFFERENT INDUSTRY

First off, I do not claim to have the perfect answer for Darth's problem; but, I can offer a perspective from someone who works in the music industry, which has been crippled by online piracy. I'm sure we all remember the days when, to buy a CD, you had to spent around $20 at Sam Goody or Tower Records. Back then, the price of music was way overpriced, because the record companies knew they could charge that amount of money. I've had many conversations with friends who the big labels; and, behind closed doors, they all agree that people chose to download music for free because of the record label's missmanagement of their greatest assets (their customers).

The internet has changed the game. The fact is that any digital products will be available to download, for free, somewhere. This, of course, does not mean that it is impossible to sell enough digital content to make a living. I have many friends (well-known bands) that sell hundreds of thousands of songs on iTunes a month, despite the fact that many people pirate their music. If someone is not willing to pay for your content, trying to force them to do so will not magically make them take out their wallet and pay you. It's better to be creative, accept that a certain percentage of the population will pirate your content and move on.

One of the things the music industry has done, in an effort to curb piracy, is exchange free content for fan data (email addresses). What if tickling video companies started offering shorter clips, in exchange for emails? They could build email lists and use those to market their content. It's worked well for the music industry.

Lastly, I would also say that, in this new internet age, I believe the real money is in live-events. I've seen this to be true, from personal experience. People can't "pirate" a ticket to a live-event. One of my friends runs one of the biggest music festivals in LA. More than 30,000 people attend and te cheapest tickets are $35. He brings in more than a million dollars in revenue, for one event. Now, in case anyone is thinking that he must be some genius or very experience... he's in his mid twenties.

Why not have some live tickling events and charge attendees a premium. I have no idea how many tickling clips a company may sell; but, it seems logical. Think about it. Those email collected could be used to market the events. Also, just because a producer of the events may live in one area, does not mean they are restricted to do events in that area. You can set-up events in different cities, if you have a team.

That's my advice; and, I think the most important thing to remember is not to alienate your customers and/or potential customers. Be creative and find creative solutions to problems.

 

[Myriads]

There are a lot of good bits of information to be found in what happened to the Record industry when they were faced with digital media, and the problems that came with it.

However these lessons do not carry over perfectly to smaller media formats like fetish media. The reason being scale, and social opinion.

The money for bands is moving into Live Shows, and stuff sold at them (T-Shirts, etc) this is possible because a liver performance from a band offers a unique and one-time event that appeals to a wide range of individuals. People go to shows and follow bands that have had an impact on them. People exchange cash for the experience.

With Tickling media it's much harder to make the leap to live offerings. There is a social stigma attached with going to live sexual events. Many will not do it. Many people do not want to consume sexual material in public. Which such shows are (Big difference in seeing a band then seeing a sexually oriented show) Also, the ability to serve all markets is near impossible for the smaller fetish industry. While you might hold live shows in the dozen largest metros with some difficulty, hitting the smaller ones and rural areas would be near impossible at a profit.

Also worth noting is that there is a big difference for the performers. Moving from being filmed, to being in public, to possibly being touched by stranger is a series of escalating mental barriers that need to be breached. Most performers will not want to be at the far interactive end. While it's not, to many it feels like prostitution once they are being paid to let folks touch them.

Fetish media producers operate on a thin edge. They basically need to stay ahead of the piracy by producing a endless stream of new material that paying folk buy for the ease that being able to find safe copies that offer no virus issues or annoying searching they have.

People will always take free things if they want them and they are easy to find. Most of these people would never have paid for them. And one would not magically turn them into buyers by taking away the free paths. At best you can spend time and energy trying to stop such. A level of which makes sense, but at some point it becomes a loosing game. The dike has way to many leaks. You plug the big ones and then pump like mad to stay ahead.

The main things producers need to remember is that ease of purchase, a low but fair price point, and a steady flow of quality content are the two best options to combat theft. Is it enough to stay ahead of the costs of business? Hard to say. But I see few other options.

Will our media producers continue to survive? Time will tell. We are small, so the margins are thinner And there are fewer people to carry the costs of production.

Myriads

 

[Comfort Eagle]

In a perfect world, people would make clips because they enjoyed doing it, and the promise of a profit is a sweet bonus. I understand that these cost money to make, and nobody hates the "The good and decent nature of tickle fetish has been sullied by PORNOGRAPHIC PRODUCERS!" argument more than me, but it just seems like a lot of people are banking on a very, very, very niche community to turn a profit and overreacted to anybody circumventing paying for their fap videos when it turns out this wasn't the golden goose they thought it would be. Being pissed off that someones taking your shit without paying, understandable. Screaming bitchfits and regularly preaching andout how "I'm totally coding these videos and am going to sue you when they pop up on DailyMotion!", releasing previews for videos you intend to release months down the line, if ever, or only unless you jump through forty hoops to get it, no as much.

It doesn't help the loudest anti-piracy advocates don't exactly make the best tickle porn.

 

[mabus]

In a perfect world, people would make clips because they enjoyed doing it, and the promise of a profit is a sweet bonus. I understand that these cost money to make, and nobody hates the "The good and decent nature of tickle fetish has been sullied by PORNOGRAPHIC PRODUCERS!" argument more than me, but it just seems like a lot of people are banking on a very, very, very niche community to turn a profit and overreacted to anybody circumventing paying for their fap videos when it turns out this wasn't the golden goose they thought it would be. Being pissed off that someones taking your shit without paying, understandable. Screaming bitchfits and regularly preaching andout how "I'm totally coding these videos and am going to sue you when they pop up on DailyMotion!", releasing previews for videos you intend to release months down the line, if ever, or only unless you jump through forty hoops to get it, no as much.

It doesn't help the loudest anti-piracy advocates don't exactly make the best tickle porn.

OOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, you just started some shit !!!!!!!!

(Most of what you said was right on the money)....but ohhh, you just started some poo poo!


Great posts all......but as difficult as it is to getting models to show up in the first place, much less get tickled, the live events would be spectacularly harder.
You'd need a model who isn't shy at all, basically, a professional fetish model, who was really ticklish.

Then getting more than a few, if any people to show up.....an average local band can easily get a a few dozen people, and if they're any good, 100's. A local Louisiana band called The Givers played a festival, and had thousands spilling out to hear them.

So that's why so many of the musicians didn't care about piracy - they make most of their money from live shows, even the big names.

And there's a huge factor not considered about a live tickle performance, as I mentioned above: It's obvious to me that a LOT of the revolving rounds of regulars in tickle videos....are faking it.
Now, bless their hearts, they show up, they do have fans, but they are probably reliable and professional, and not like the ones in my "Horror stories" thread, that show up with their parents, or are like "So, uhh, will you be 'tickling' me?" or as I've dealt with in non tickle related videos - "Can I appear in your movie....but not be on camera?" There was one producer who said there was a regular tickle model, unnamed (dammit) who was totally faking it and was just there for a check....

But......can you imagine in there were like, 20 horny guys there, and the producer starts tickling some faker......but.....they're standing fucking RIGHT THERE, and the customers are like....."What THE FUCK is this SHIT?!!!!!!"
"She's not even TRYING to do a good job faking laughter....and she's FAKING LAUGHTER! We want our money back!!!!!!! And our gas!!!! And our time!!!!!!"

Boy, would that get ugly......

 

[meangry]

The video section is, in essence, a revolving turnstyle for advertisers to put out materials. I think you have plenty of fakers, plenty of ticklish models, and outside of large scale circumstances, I can't tell who is and isn't faking. I go on bodily movement and reactions as such, so someone who isn't moving a terrible amount is probably up to something. But, well, I don't care. And to some extent, going by the quality of materials put out there, users don't care because in any given circumstance, there is fantasy being lived out and they don't want theirs spoiled.

But I'm also not going to feel extremely sorry for producers either when their materials are stolen. The medium of the internet is, in and of itself, fostered a culture of free-to-all. It's the reason any of them can make money, or go on here and post previews and take up bandwidth of a free resource that administrators don't charge a fee for. There is a long listing sidebar of producers who have turned this into venture capital. Hell, in essence, the base OF this community's media consumption is rooted in breaking DRM and copyrights to post up videos from CalStar or however that have been lost to the ether, or wherever it is that pornographic celluloid goes when it disappears.

The stories all the same of people that come here; acceptance of something they thought they were alone in the world to, and finding some level of kinship or companionship or someplace where their sexual cravings can be fed. Speak with old timers, they will talk of a different world. Talk to those that have seen the change? Community costs money. Gatherings cost money. And, hell, that makes sense. But come on. Producers are, often times, just paying someone an escort fee to tickle them. So, they can dump two hundred or five hundred or however much it takes to get a model in, and all they do is just run their fingers on them (and a few of them very poorly), and then drop in and say "forty bucks" for someone else to share their experience.

There are some producers who have legitimate gripes, to be sure. There are others that don't. Whatever. The Clips4sale manner of doing business is going to be your best. People will always steal music, and porn, and other things. As a vendor, the best thing for you to do is to make it easier for consumers to buy your product, because, and get this, even with all the stealing in music, there is a sizeable percentage of that that happened because the music industry model of distribution was A.)Inefficient and B.) Too costly for the consumer in correspondence to the quality of the product. People are much more apt to see something they like for ten bucks and say "that isn't anything at all!" You know, like how Tickle Abuse and other vendors in that mold are. That's more key to overall success...the whole understanding your consumer and give them a good reason to pay you.

But why do that when you can bitch on a gellsoft license you didn't pay a nickel for?

 

[BigJim]

Myr old chap, would you be horrendously pissed if I corrected your spelling? 😀

 

[Myriads]

Sure you can, but what is incorrect? It's passed 2 spell checks, there might be a usage or language error, but spelling seems okay....

Myriads

 

[Emishticklish]

It's stealing, and it's wrong. I pay for all my Material. Now if Someone posts a personal video on Youtube or something, that's different. However just like I wouldn't steal merch from a Retail Store, I wouldn't from a Company. Nor do I support it. This is why they go out of business! Or am I the only one who thinks that way?

 

[Phineas]

To add onto what Myriads said about live performances, one of our producers tried it. I forget who at the moment. I'm coming down off a turkey high. Anyway, he said some of the guys who showed up got all creepy with the models so he had to stop doing it.

Also, with not being able to pirate live performances... people sneak cameras or recording equipment into concerts all the time, and have been doing so for forty years. Sure, it's not exactly the same experience as being there, but you can still hear the show for free.

Piracy is a problem, but that doesn't mean we can stop fighting it. Fact is, people who make videos, musicians, whatever, they need to eat too, and bitching about how you pirate stuff because it's such poor quality that you wouldn't pay for it is stupid. If it's that bad, don't watch it at all.

 

[rhiannon]

It's stealing, and it's wrong. I pay for all my Material. Now if Someone posts a personal video on Youtube or something, that's different. However just like I wouldn't steal merch from a Retail Store, I wouldn't from a Company. Nor do I support it. This is why they go out of business! Or am I the only one who thinks that way?

No, you're not, I agree 100%! Just because the stuff is available on the internet and not the store around the corner doesn't make it any more right than stealing from that store!

 

[BigJim]

Sure you can, but what is incorrect? It's passed 2 spell checks, there might be a usage or language error, but spelling seems okay....

Myriads

False alarm, Myr. It's a colonial spelling thing. Konsidder me to be sootably chastizzed.

 

[coldneck]

False alarm, Myr. It's a colonial spelling thing. Konsidder me to be sootably chastizzed.

Well, he did use the word "liver" when I think he meant "live", which I found pretty damn funny.

 

[coldneck]

No, you're not, I agree 100%! Just because the stuff is available on the internet and not the store around the corner doesn't make it any more right than stealing from that store!

There's a difference between walking out of a retail store with a CD and downloading mp3 files.

It's called "file sharing". Maybe you've heard of it?!?

It happens to be pretty damn popular right now.

If I really like it, I'll buy the higher-res CD.

I don't understand some people's need to point out how righteous they are and how corrupt and immoral everyone else is.

I say, "well, good for you, Mother Theresa. Did that make you feel better?"

 

[marcusb]

Uhm. No there isn't.

If you walk into a store, put the CD in your coat and walk out... that's theft.
If you go to a pirate site and download the MP3s of that CD w/o paying... that's theft.

There is no difference.

There's a difference between walking out of a retail store with a CD and downloading mp3 files.

 

[datickler]

"file sharing" has been done for decades, hasnt anyone ever had a mixtape done for them or done one for others?....thats taking music that you most likely didnt own or purchase yourself isnt it?

 

[rhiannon]

Uhm. No there isn't.

If you walk into a store, put the CD in your coat and walk out... that's theft.
If you go to a pirate site and download the MP3s of that CD w/o paying... that's theft.

There is no difference.

This. Sorry, coldneck, if you think downloading copyrighted MP3s without paying for them is not the same as theft. But you might find out sooner or later that it actually is - the hard way.

Plus, the more people are illegally downloading, the more expensive stuff gets.....so it's the fault of those very people who bitch about the price of everything and say that's why they are illegally downloading that the price actually is as high as it is!

 

[gridsmasher2000]

this all seemed so much simpler when it was just FM Concepts, CalStar, and a few others out there, no online clip sales.. I enjoyed it more then. Waiting anxiously for the mailman to bring me my tape so I could watch it on my TV screen. I missed out on so many producers that have come and gone though, i wish there was a way to get ahold of the old tickling holly tapes. sorry, not trying to steer off subject

 

[coldneck]

This. Sorry, coldneck, if you think downloading copyrighted MP3s without paying for them is not the same as theft. But you might find out sooner or later that it actually is - the hard way.

Plus, the more people are illegally downloading, the more expensive stuff gets.....so it's the fault of those very people who bitch about the price of everything and say that's why they are illegally downloading that the price actually is as high as it is!

Wrong again.
MP3's are a much lower res version of the files found on a CD.

The music industry got away with over-charging for years. The price of CDs is cheaper now than they were 10 years ago.
Why do you figure that is?
If you're even half-way paying attention, file sharing has driven the prices DOWN.

And don't worry, I'm not going to do time for sharing files.
The RIAA stopped prosecuting for d/ling MP3 files.
I'll be just fine.

The same applies for an digital media.
It's going to show up online if its any good, and producers know this.
It's just part of the business.

 

[tku]

Uhm. No there isn't.

If you walk into a store, put the CD in your coat and walk out... that's theft.
If you go to a pirate site and download the MP3s of that CD w/o paying... that's theft.

There is no difference.

In the analog realm, the goods no longer exist to be sold to a potential customer...

In the digital realm, the goods still remain and can be cloned to infinity...

There's a massive difference. All you effectively said above was "theft is theft", which (aside from being a tautology) is perhaps the most common way avoiding the obvious differences between something you can hold in your hands and digital goods, then supplanting those differences with hyperbole 😛

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing the point that sharing or uploading copyrighted works can't have adverse effects on an online business. Of course they can... but the first four or five posts in this topic make some really well thought out insightful points, and speak far louder to me personally than the raft of emotive assertions that piracy discussions can and very often do degenerate into.

Many people refuse to engage themselves with the way the internet is, for whatever reason, and instead prefer to attempt to mould it around their perceptions of what's right and wrong in the outside world - that applies to both extremes when debating piracy. From the Luddite; who refuses to acknowledge that the internet is a different arena with different rules whether they like it or not, to the leecher; who refuses to acknowledge that sometimes piracy really does hurt the little guy and isn't just simply a way to stick your middle finger up at those who peddle shoddy wares at high prices.

I don't support rights owners abusing out of date, punitive copyright laws to spread fear and bleed downloaders dry out of personal spite and lack of creativity. Equally, I don't support people who see no problem in driving businesses, artists and developers into the ground by aggressively ripping off all their work with no regard to the damage that can do. It's not a black and white issue, and in my experience the only people who paint it as such have vested interests or are plainly obtuse. As far as I am concerned, the internet provides all of the tools necessary to thrive within and Darwinism is very much alive and well - businesses, artists and users alike can either use their ingenuity to thrive and evolve along with it, or die (figuratively speaking )

Cheers

 

[coldneck]

Uhm. No there isn't.

If you walk into a store, put the CD in your coat and walk out... that's theft.
If you go to a pirate site and download the MP3s of that CD w/o paying... that's theft.

There is no difference.

It's bad form to sell an opinion or viewpoint as fact.

 

[ZenTickling]

Sure, most of the time the videos are fun to make, but I don't think everyone realizes the costs that are involved. HD camera, video editing software, bondage equipment, model fees, payment processing fees.. then if you manage to make a profit you are SLAMMED come tax time. Not to mention the fact that the actual time I get to tickle a model is small compared to the other things I need to do to put a clip out.

I know of several sites that share tickling clips illegally, and I know that there are members of this forum that use them (I've recognized several screen names). It's not the end of the world (it's just tickling), but some producers may start to follow RelentlessTKLR's lead and only offer clips privately. Either that or the small producers will just be forced to stop.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

It's bad form to sell an opinion or viewpoint as fact.

Given western laws in regards to intelectual property, this is fact.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

As far as piracy goes, i've always been on the fence for this, because I know that if i was dead set against it, it would make me a hypocrit.

I watch anime and read manga that has been put up all the time. Now one could argue that it's not so bad in the sense that some of the material has not been translated into english by english companies (and some never will) meaning there is a limit to what can be seen. However, I have also watched TV shows like Game of Thrones and the walking dead off the internet, because we don't have cable. Even the anime and manga I can buy though, I watch for free, because I really don't have the money to buy it if I wanted to (i also prefer digital as it can save a shit load of resources like paper, but thats another discussion).

Personally, I like the idea of not having copyrights on intelectual property. I think that much of what would be considered the arts and knowledge should be free, as i feel it is both an essential and important part of humanity. However, I also understand that people need to live. I also understand, when it comes to videos, that it costs money for equipement, renting models, and probably other expenses I don't know about. I think that producers have every right to protect and get upset about their material being shared against there will.

As far as ways to counter it, this can be a difficult subject to figure out, partially because so much of what they could do can be just copied and uploaded again.

 

[ZenTickling]

However, I have also watched TV shows like Game of Thrones and the walking dead off the internet, because we don't have cable.

It depends where you go to watch them. So many shows are online now.. the producers make money off the advertising that is shown on the page and before the clips. If you're downloading them through a P2P network then that is stealing. You can easily get the show on DVD or rent it from a local store/service.

 

[Cosmo_ac]

It depends where you go to watch them. So many shows are online now.. the producers make money off the advertising that is shown on the page and before the clips. If you're downloading them through a P2P network then that is stealing. You can easily get the show on DVD or rent it from a local store/service.

True, but i'm not doing anything like Netflix or paid for downloading or anything like that. I'm straight up pirating. Granted, I may in time purchase the DVD sets, if they have good bonus material.