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TICKLING PIRACY - YOUR OPINION???

As far as the models go; why don't you just find women here on the TMF (and over on TT) to tickle? That way you won't have to pay them because they like being tickled, in other words, they will let you tickle them just because they like being tickled. What I'm saying there is; the reason the models charge you to tickle them is because they're not into tickling, therefore, they wil not just let you tickle them for free. In other words, the only reason they even do the tickling video thing is because they need the money. In other words, they charge you because they really don't wanna be tickled. That wouldn't be the case with the women you find on TMF and TT, they are into tickling, they want you to tickle them. Therefore, they won't charge you. You will have free models. There, that takes care of the model thing.
Click to expand...

I lol'ed 🙂
 
Another piracy issue that I haven't really seen touched upon here is the issue of chargebacks and where many of them come from. First off, let me say that I actually AM trying to make a living as a producer. Yes, it's fun, but at the end of the day (and during the day), it's a business. Many tickling producers, in the last year, have received loads of chargebacks on their C4S stores, due to pirates using stolen credit card info to "buy" clips, to post on pirate sites. When the real credit card owner reports the bogus transaction, clips4sale, and especially the producer, take the hit when the amount of the sale (often a big order of $50 or more) is charged back against the store. One individual in particular has done this and put a few producers, like Sergio from Body & Sole, out of business. Not cool

The pirate responsible for this is experiencing serious difficulty now, because several producers (James Darke, Tommy, Kenny Lee, Stryker, Tickle Central, myself and others) have banded together to put an end to this crap. He makes himself out to be some sort of Robin Hood, but the fact is that he's not paying a dime for the clips he's obtaining AND he's MAKING MONEY on a per-view basis, with the file-sharing sites, on which he was posting the links for the clips. Many of this guy's empty-headed followers think that he's some kind of altruistic hero, spending his time and money to provide free videos for the tickling community. Nothing could be further from the truth. Pirates like this guy steal from the producers, the models (of whom they claim to be fans) and even everyday people, who have nothing to do with any of this and anyone who supports them is a bottom-feeding thief.

Funny thing is, some of this guy's fans have promised to boycott the "troublesome and greedy" producers, for protecting their copyrighted property. So, let me get this straight ... you're not going to buy from me, because I don't let you steal all my stuff? Yeah ... right.
 
Extremely interesting and educational thread.

Here's my take: Digital media makes nonsense of traditional concepts of 'ownership' and 'theft;' trying to argue that stealing is stealing no matter what is only going to work on cretins. Regulation isn't the answer. You can't fight the advance of new, better technology, and even if you could, why would you? If this means it doesn't make economic sense to produce videos on the internet for profit anymore, so be it.

The OP's point was that it's up to the industry itself to adapt or die; producers should heed his advice.
 
ftkl_haha said:
The pirate responsible for this is experiencing serious difficulty now, because several producers (James Darke, Tommy, Kenny Lee, Stryker, Tickle Central, myself and others) have banded together to put an end to this crap. He makes himself out to be some sort of Robin Hood, but the fact is that he's not paying a dime for the clips he's obtaining AND he's MAKING MONEY on a per-view basis, with the file-sharing sites, on which he was posting the links for the clips. Many of this guy's empty-headed followers think that he's some kind of altruistic hero, spending his time and money to provide free videos for the tickling community. Nothing could be further from the truth. Pirates like this guy steal from the producers, the models (of whom they claim to be fans) and even everyday people, who have nothing to do with any of this and anyone who supports them is a bottom-feeding thief.
Click to expand...

I know who you're talking about. Frankly I'm under the assumption he has no fans/followers and just uses different names to sperg out when people confront him.

While on this subject, though, I'd like to point out how ridiculously overpriced MTJ material is. There's the issue of "Well it's a fetish niche and there isn't a massive base for that so we gotta make it up somewhere", and then there's the fact that these are e-comics that are drawn once and then distributed digitally for free whether 6 people buy it or 6000 people buy it, so it's not like actually making them costs an unreasonably amount of dosh.
 
I think what Relentless Tickler and now Stryker are doing is the way to go. That is using the paypal method. This creates two forms of benefit. The first is that you can collect basic information about who is purchasing the clips. The second is that they probably can lower their operating costs imposed by clips 4 sale.

My only suggestion for producers is if they go this route that they provide previews similar to the way Turtleboy (Tickle UK) does. The images allow the potential customers to see where is tickled and what is/isn't exposed or prodded. The preview clip allows the potential purchaser to hear the laughter and gauge if the model's laugh or ticklish reaction works for them.

I like most of you kind of got burned in the past buying some clips that seem promising but turn out differently say after the first few minutes. So I think what Turtleboy does limits that possibility. The tickling should be free crowd, I would venture to say, have never ran businesses in their lives. Imagine how hard it would be to find some random girl to tickle for money much less a model. Imagine how many fakers you'd have to sift through (which wastes free time) plus production costs, etc.

Some of the push-back Bella and other producers mentioned is completely absurd. I do not claim to be a pillar of moral rectitude. Heck the main reason I went out and got memberships with TA and Czech, besides the fact that they are good, was because of the guilt I had caused by me pulling some of their clips off youtube/dailymotion back in the day (never redistributed them but still it was not right). Anyways, I plan on buying more clips of theirs and other producers like Lily Haze, Stryker, Silvercherry, FMConcept and others as finances permit. I have bought clips from TP, Real Tickling, Cal Star, Vigin Pink Soles, etc in the past just for common knowledge.

Thanks,
K
 
I guess folks need a discussion on Capitalism 101 of tickling videos....

The charge backs certainly aren't just affecting you tickling producers, and it may not be stolen credit cards. People buy the clip, then lie and dispute the charge to the credit card company.

Christina Model complained about it a few years ago, but she was able to stop charge backs.
 
ftkl_haha said:
Another piracy issue that I haven't really seen touched upon here is the issue of chargebacks and where many of them come from. First off, let me say that I actually AM trying to make a living as a producer. Yes, it's fun, but at the end of the day (and during the day), it's a business. Many tickling producers, in the last year, have received loads of chargebacks on their C4S stores, due to pirates using stolen credit card info to "buy" clips, to post on pirate sites. When the real credit card owner reports the bogus transaction, clips4sale, and especially the producer, take the hit when the amount of the sale (often a big order of $50 or more) is charged back against the store. One individual in particular has done this and put a few producers, like Sergio from Body & Sole, out of business. Not cool

The pirate responsible for this is experiencing serious difficulty now, because several producers (James Darke, Tommy, Kenny Lee, Stryker, Tickle Central, myself and others) have banded together to put an end to this crap. He makes himself out to be some sort of Robin Hood, but the fact is that he's not paying a dime for the clips he's obtaining AND he's MAKING MONEY on a per-view basis, with the file-sharing sites, on which he was posting the links for the clips. Many of this guy's empty-headed followers think that he's some kind of altruistic hero, spending his time and money to provide free videos for the tickling community. Nothing could be further from the truth. Pirates like this guy steal from the producers, the models (of whom they claim to be fans) and even everyday people, who have nothing to do with any of this and anyone who supports them is a bottom-feeding thief.

Funny thing is, some of this guy's fans have promised to boycott the "troublesome and greedy" producers, for protecting their copyrighted property. So, let me get this straight ... you're not going to buy from me, because I don't let you steal all my stuff? Yeah ... right.
Click to expand...

It's truly amazing when a fool thinks that he has the right to give away freely what it costs us money to produce. It is theft.

Charge-backs are bad enough. But when they are used to fuel piracy, they take on a deeper, far reaching essence.

JD
JD
 
c7_assassin said:
Extremely interesting and educational thread.

Here's my take: Digital media makes nonsense of traditional concepts of 'ownership' and 'theft;' trying to argue that stealing is stealing no matter what is only going to work on cretins. Regulation isn't the answer. You can't fight the advance of new, better technology, and even if you could, why would you? If this means it doesn't make economic sense to produce videos on the internet for profit anymore, so be it.

The OP's point was that it's up to the industry itself to adapt or die; producers should heed his advice.
Click to expand...

If by your words, you mean to say that producers should not fight to protect our hard earned intellectual property, then I must stand opposed to your view. I may have misunderstood you though (I hope).

Simply because we develop and transact in the digital world does not mean that we must accept to be ripped off. Such logic extends to other conclusions that secret documents should be made free with no consequence.

Ownership and rights exists fully in the digital realm. Several people in jail are considering that this truth may not in fact be optional.

Again, I am open to believing that I didn't get your point accurately.

JD
 
kcantankerous said:
I think what Relentless Tickler and now Stryker are doing is the way to go. That is using the paypal method. This creates two forms of benefit. The first is that you can collect basic information about who is purchasing the clips. The second is that they probably can lower their operating costs imposed by clips 4 sale.
Click to expand...

It may seem like a good solution. I know. I tried it.

If Paypal catches you, they delete your account because it violates their terms of service. Many producers who have been burned by this now HATE Paypal. FYI

JD
 
mabus said:
I guess folks need a discussion on Capitalism 101 of tickling videos....

The charge backs certainly aren't just affecting you tickling producers, and it may not be stolen credit cards. People buy the clip, then lie and dispute the charge to the credit card company.

Christina Model complained about it a few years ago, but she was able to stop charge backs.
Click to expand...

If anyone needs the Capitalism 101 lesson, it's the people who think that theft is OK. Anyone who does this long enough will get chargebacks, no doubt. And yes, they affect more than just the producers (said that already). And we've heard all the stories, believe me. The instances that I'M talking about refer to a rash of such chargebacks that many producers and C4S could tell you, are indeed from fraudulent orders, which mirror the updates to certain pirate sites perfectly. C4S even has a protocol for dealing with it, now, because it got so out of hand.
 
jmsdarke said:
It may seem like a good solution. I know. I tried it.

If Paypal catches you, they delete your account because it violates their terms of service. Many producers who have been burned by this now HATE Paypal. FYI

JD
Click to expand...

Hey JD,

Wow, so being a producer of fetish material violates paypal rules? Heck if I remember correctly, the creator of paypal didn't have the straightest of moral compasses (not saying producing fetish content is immoral in case anyone makes that inference). I know when I signed up for TA's membership the site took 7 days to validate more information before I actually could purchase the membership. Do you think something like that would help?

Clearly I am not familiar with the chargeback phenomenon. You can PM me if you don't want to air it out in the public forum.

Thanks,
K
 
jmsdarke said:
If by your words, you mean to say that producers should not fight to protect our hard earned intellectual property, then I must stand opposed to your view. I may have misunderstood you though (I hope).

Simply because we develop and transact in the digital world does not mean that we must accept to be ripped off. Such logic extends to other conclusions that secret documents should be made free with no consequence.

Ownership and rights exists fully in the digital realm. Several people in jail are considering that this truth may not in fact be optional.

Again, I am open to believing that I didn't get your point accurately.

JD
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing about your rights, I'm arguing practicality. You absolutely have the right to do everything in your power to stop people from appropriating your content; I'm just saying that it probably can't work. And in the end, that really not anybody's fault.

I mean, does anyone want to be the RIAA in this situation?
 
Well, as a new producer (only been at it since August), I've been completely raped by piracy of my material, especially by the guy FTKL and JD have been talking about. It's been almost impossible to get my sales off the ground, as the minute I post a new clip, it's shared all over the internet. Also as mentioned by FTKL, we're working together now to aggressively combat this behavior. Models cost money. Studio space/time costs money. Editing costs time, and time is money. Marketing costs time and money. I'm not looking to make a huge amount of money off of this - just enough to off-set my shooting costs. Piracy is what puts small producers like me out of business - and when that happens, you've got less content to enjoy. I have a day job besides this - it's not like I need this to survive - I'm just trying to fund my continued shoots and trying to enjoy sharing my content with the consumers. Piracy is theft, regardless of what kind of twisted interpretation of vague copyright laws you want to apply to it. We know who's stealing, we know where the stuff is getting posted, and we're doing something about it.
 
kcantankerous said:
Hey JD,

Wow, so being a producer of fetish material violates paypal rules? Heck if I remember correctly, the creator of paypal didn't have the straightest of moral compasses (not saying producing fetish content is immoral in case anyone makes that inference). I know when I signed up for TA's membership the site took 7 days to validate more information before I actually could purchase the membership. Do you think something like that would help?

Clearly I am not familiar with the chargeback phenomenon. You can PM me if you don't want to air it out in the public forum.

Thanks,
K
Click to expand...

Yes, anything considered "adult content" (and fetish is considered as such) is against Paypal's rules. Not to mention, you lose the benefit of C4S being the single largest fetish content distribution vehicle on earth - and all the marketing and exposure that goes along with it. Stryker and Relentless did what they needed to do to protect their content, and I respect that decision...but it's not as easy as just making a quick decision to jump to paypal. Not to mention, in my case, being new, I rely HEAVILY on drive-by traffic, since I haven't had the luxury to spend years building up a fan base yet.
 
I would really like to get into this; I just dont have the time to read all the good posts above. But I will offer my perspective. I've pirated some media in the past; we all knew it was wrong, but we did it. Why? Because we love a bargain. I make decent money but I am on a budget as are a lot of consumers. I wait for prices to go down or if a big sale comes along. In the meantime, if opportunity arise and you can get it for FREE, its too big a temptation to resist. I dont bother with pirated crap anymore bc I dont trust the source. One hit with a virus is a pretty good deterrent.

What I didnt see mentioned above that I'd like to discuss is media prices as time goes on . . . For me, it would seem that as time goes on, stuff should get cheaper. As in, were I to buy a book or CD or DVD from 10, 20 years ago, typically the price would be a lot less that the newer stuff coming out. The same does not apply for tickle videos and other media - they seem to stay pretty stagnant, and you gotta wait for a "sale" to come around (and then, the price is only lowered $1-2 a video) [The C4S rules mentioned above explain WHY - I dont like it but I understand] -

The main exception has been MTJ Pub: their prices have gone up in the last few years, and I find it difficult to pay $14-16 for new publications; it drives me away from their business sometimes. I'm become more selective and buy only the good stuff I like. BUT their prices do go down some with time and the sales they have are very nice, so thats when I buy.

I think part of what keeps prices up is the high demand inherent with fetish material. Some people are willing to pay these prices because its erotic material. Other people may not feel this way and even find issue with this, see these prices as unjustified (taking advantage of people's fetishes) and use this as the rationale behind pirating material.

========================================

Furthermore, what I dont understand is the uproar over discontinued material. When I got old enough to buy videos, some of my favorites from a few years prior were gone. Other times, I waited too long for prices to go down and the video gets pulled. I've searched extensively (with no success) and contacted the producers (who dont have the original footage anymore). And yet, when I look for "pirated" copies or ask around for help in obtaining a copy from other people here, I get the copyright/pirating/stealing argument. I dont think this charge holds ANY water if what you're looking for is not on the market. I've said it before and stand by it: If anyone has any old tickle media no longer sold online; it should be fair game and free for distribution/. Thats what this community started off as.

Theres no answer to pirating, as long as you can make a copy, it will always exist.
 
KenPlaysGuitar said:
Yes, anything considered "adult content" (and fetish is considered as such) is against Paypal's rules. Not to mention, you lose the benefit of C4S being the single largest fetish content distribution vehicle on earth - and all the marketing and exposure that goes along with it. Stryker and Relentless did what they needed to do to protect their content, and I respect that decision...but it's not as easy as just making a quick decision to jump to paypal. Not to mention, in my case, being new, I rely HEAVILY on drive-by traffic, since I haven't had the luxury to spend years building up a fan base yet.
Click to expand...

Hello Ken,

First off, I appreciate the insight you've brought to this discussion. I am not a producer but I am interested in businesses of all kinds which is why I'm commenting on this thread. You brought up an interesting point which, sadly I didn't consider. I was under the impression that the majority of sales came from either TMF/TickleTheater members. Having said that, C4S does provide extensive exposure for your content among a larger audience.

Knowing this I'd like do my part in finding ways to help y'all stanch the piracy. Consider me an enlighten member, as I have pulled stuff from youtube/dailymotion in the past and I am not particularly proud of it (never reposted but still I have been part of the problem even though) especially given that I have learned just how much that hurts you guys.

What if you made little teaser clips say 5 minutes or so long supplemented with a 30 second preview and UK style picture format or detailed description of what the clips contain. Such as length of time different body parts are tickled etc. I know that costs money but bare with me, and you could charge slightly more than the Clips for sale price (sure razor thin margins, but you would get yourself more exposure) Then you sale the full length version through paypal or some other medium. Off hand I think you would (1) get the exposure you seek via C4S (2) you would get the have the ability to get information from consumers of your full length features (3) piracy would theoretically be limited to the 5 minute clips.

I know this is way too simplistic and would be even more time intensive. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,
K
 
One more thought, I know C4S currently has a monopoly on this sort of thing. Could the producers pull together to launch a site that serves the same purpose? Sort of like who businesses form variable purpose entities to serve their mutual benefit err avoid taxes. Also, you really want to make sure that the IRS sees your production as a business and not a hobby FYI. That way you can take deductions against your expenses and participate in loss carry forwards.

Thanks,
K
 
Frankly at this point I don't see how you guys are any different from porn producers anymore, I'd go and try to find out how big name smut peddlers are dealing with the same problem.
 
Comfort Eagle said:
Frankly at this point I don't see how you guys are any different from porn producers anymore, I'd go and try to find out how big name smut peddlers are dealing with the same problem.
Click to expand...

They are dying. That is how they are dealing.

The big porn houses have been all but destroyed by the web. They suffer serious piracy problems, and their solution was to not do digital releases for a long time. But the downloadable web structure drove customers to smaller houses that did stream/sell clips.

Add in that C4S and cheap home cams have eaten the fetish market, and that dozens of 'post your homemade porn' sites are thriving on the web they are seeing declining market share, and a few have died.

Piracy and social changes have done to them what censors and such never could.

Myriads
 
Add in that C4S and cheap home cams have eaten the fetish market
Click to expand...

...so is it a dying business, or one that just splintered because more people are getting in?
 
I think this thread is being spun out of the actual premise. I suggest that Comfort Eagle and derkitzelnkonig and myself should take this discussion up on an appropriate thread topic. This thread was meant to talk about piracy, not the potential demise of producers or whether or not its going to porn or what have you.

Thanks,
K
 
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