Trading Clips?

[DerekM]

I hope this doesn't start a big argument. I'm pretty knew to this site so I wanted to see how people felt about it.

Is it acceptable to trade clips with other people? I'm not sure how I feel about it. Like when I was younger my friends and I used to trade video games and movies all the time, and I saw nothing wrong with that. But for some reason, since we don't have physical copies of tickling clips, it makes it seem like stealing. What do you guys think?

 

[Comfort Eagle]

If you get a for-pay product without paying, even if it isn't a "physical thing", it's essentially the same thing.

 

[knicks255]

"Trading" implies you give something away. You can't really give away a clip that you can copy/paste infinite times.

 

[ajleeis#1]

I see no problem with it. If I bought shirt, and my friend bought a shirt, and then we want to trade shirts, whats wrong with that? we both own them. So if I bought one tickle clip, and you bought another, why can't we trade them.

 

[primetime]

Your not really trading, your just duping and keeping your original. If you were really trading you would no longer have your original. Do that, especially publicly, then what non-ethical reason does someone have to pay for the original version of the digital media when they can download it free.

This....

That's what people don't realize. True trading is you will no longer have the clip. But we all know you can simply copy the original and send it to the other person....

 

[alex]

If we want clips, we really should pay the producers for them. Fairness is one reason. But if that doesn't move you, another reason is that you don't want to kill the geese that lay the golden eggs: if producers can't make a decent living off their clips, they're apt to stop making them.

 

[The Last Laugh]

I see no problem with it. If I bought shirt, and my friend bought a shirt, and then we want to trade shirts, whats wrong with that? we both own them. So if I bought one tickle clip, and you bought another, why can't we trade them.

Very different situations. Your example involves physical products. Both shirts were paid for and you can't make copies so that you and another person gets one copy each. By trading you gain an item, but give one away. That's fine.

When you trade clips you're creating extra copies, for which you didn't pay. It's unfortunately really easy to send someone a copy of a clip and keep a copy for oneself. And unlike the shirts, which were both paid for, you end up with two copies for the price of one. That's wrong, and illegal.

Also, simply deleting the original copy from one's drive(s) isn't enough. It doesn't work that way with electronic products.

 

[robmic]

If we want clips, we really should pay the producers for them. Fairness is one reason. But if that doesn't move you, another reason is that you don't want to kill the geese that lay the golden eggs: if producers can't make a decent living off their clips, they're apt to stop making them.

What he said! ^^^^^^^

 

[SoleSearcher]

If we want clips, we really should pay the producers for them. Fairness is one reason. But if that doesn't move you, another reason is that you don't want to kill the geese that lay the golden eggs: if producers can't make a decent living off their clips, they're apt to stop making them.

Thank you for saying this, brother!

 

[TripleH1]

I trade, give away, whatever you want to call it, clips with other people and see no harm.

 

[The Last Laugh]

I trade, give away, whatever you want to call it, clips with other people and see no harm.

Then you're doing something wrong without realizing that it's not only illegal but also harmful to businesses.

 

[DontAskJusTckle]

"Trading" implies you give something away. You can't really give away a clip that you can copy/paste infinite times.

By the same token, "stealing" implies you TAKE something away. You can't really STEAL a clip if the person from whom you "stole" it still has his original copy.

The correct term for this crime is pirating, not stealing. Stealing involves thievery. It involves a victim losing something from his possession. Pirating is the unlawful duplication of intellectual property. It's just as illegal as stealing, and I support anti-piracy laws. But referring to it as stealing is simply a propaganda tool used by big media to discourage the activity.

 

[His Divine Shadow]

Also, simply deleting the original copy from one's drive(s) isn't enough. It doesn't work that way with electronic products.

This may not actually be true, although the law is unsettled on this question. As best I have been able to determine from what case law there is, if someone sold their sole copy of a digital product (for example, by selling the hard disk drive with the sole copy of the digital product on it), this would likely fall under the protection of first-sale.

One potentially murky area is if the agreement one signs when purchasing the digital product specifies that a license to view the product has been sold and not the actual product. Then one might potentially be in violation of that agreement by selling the sole copy, such as in my selling of a hard disk drive example. However, such agreements have not always stood the test of the courts, and it might well be ruled that so long as you sell the only copy that you are well within your right as buyer to sell the "right to view" that product, perhaps under some portion of first-sale. I stress that this is much less clear. EDIT: I should note, which I forgot about, that this is explicitly permitted in the European Union. A 2012 European Court of Justice ruling stated that consumers are entitled to resell their purchased software even if the license purported to prevent this provided that the original owner loses the ability to use the software. This would presumably apply to digital downloads as well.

However, it is absolutely correct to say that if you trade by copying the digital product (what most people mean when they want to "trade") that you are in full violation of copyright law. I want to emphasize that clip trading is not permitted on the TMF for the very reason that most, if not all, proposed trades are in the form of "me copy and give, you copy and give" rather than "me give original storage media, you give original storage media".

 

[Oddjob0226]

The correct term for this crime is pirating, not stealing.

Pirates stole stuff. They were known for it.

 

[TripleH1]

I'd be truly curios to know how many people who say it's wrong to do this download movies and music from the web.

 

[primetime]

I'd be truly curios to know how many people who say it's wrong to do this download movies and music from the web.

The only number would be people like you who want stuff for free. Is there a problem with you buying the clips rather than hoping someone can "trade" or send it to you? Once you pay attention to that answer, you should be able to see why people frown upon "stealing" and "piracy".

 

[Bohemianne]

I hope this doesn't start a big argument. I'm pretty knew to this site so I wanted to see how people felt about it.

Is it acceptable to trade clips with other people? I'm not sure how I feel about it. Like when I was younger my friends and I used to trade video games and movies all the time, and I saw nothing wrong with that. But for some reason, since we don't have physical copies of tickling clips, it makes it seem like stealing. What do you guys think?

Personally, I feel nothing. You just outed yourself as a trader. Some will take note, some will not. That's all.

 

[icekeepers]

If we want clips, we really should pay the producers for them. Fairness is one reason. But if that doesn't move you, another reason is that you don't want to kill the geese that lay the golden eggs: if producers can't make a decent living off their clips, they're apt to stop making them.

absolutly aggree and not only talking fetish clips (music, movies ...)
today eveybody wants all, without paying nothing
that sucks, giving a fucking world nobody is happy.
I like paying a clip thinking it's for the producer and for the lovely model playing the game for my fetish
I can't, but i really would love if i could pay a lot of custom clips 150 $ each

 

[icekeepers]

i know it's hard to pay ,when having no money - but for the main of people downloading piracy music they can pay the 10 $ monthly membership for tons of songs on deezer, spotify, quobuzz or any others, should not be a problem for - so, what is the real problem ?

 

[TicklesForFun]

I'm all for putting down my money for clips (as many producers here can attest), but I also want the best deal for my dollar. Thus, I tend to frequent the stores that offer membership sites (good deal financially plus the privacy benefits of streaming) or sales. James Darke traditionally does 2-3 "BOGO" sales each year, and that's a great way to maximize tickles and minimize cost.

 

[meangry]

This....

That's what people don't realize. True trading is you will no longer have the clip. But we all know you can simply copy the original and send it to the other person....

You mean like how in the VHS days you'd just use two VCRs and make a copy off of a master to trade? Because that's been the case with this community since before TMF existed.

The only number would be people like you who want stuff for free. Is there a problem with you buying the clips rather than hoping someone can "trade" or send it to you? Once you pay attention to that answer, you should be able to see why people frown upon "stealing" and "piracy".

Welcome to the internet, where piracy and stealing leads to tech innovations, new distribution methods for content consumption, and consumer friendly pricing models and sites. It's the internet, you're not going to stop it, and to be frank, this website built an entire generational base of people who put together what little content there was and gave it to each other, or posted pictures from magazines for free consumption, or for pieces of art, or stories, or what have you. I get the producer side because people don't want their products stolen when they could break even or make money, but the people hammered by it are the big time producers, not the smaller ones who have a myriad of excuses as to why their venture isn't near a market leader like Tickle Abuse without understanding product strategies and business models that would make them more competitive/fill niches within the marketplace and return more on investment/differentiate themselves in an saturated market.

I personally love how every time something like this is brought up there is the mythical shaming process for behaviors as well as content producers fawning over their digital content rights in the most banal and simplistic of manners. If your business model is just open up a clips4sale and do a two camera shoot without real investment in cameras and lighting and, hell, bondage rigs, your product is going to look like it isn't worth making an investment in. If your business model is posting on the video section of this forum, and that's it, you deserve to suffer because you're often enough not doing enough to stand out in this marketplace. At least now our clips section isn't built on retread reposts.

I get why producers post about it. Again, it's about their investment, and they should be protective. But let's not act shocked that porn on the internet gets pirated, or that for many people it either is a circumstance of content cost or distribution method. That's the better way to attack the issue. Not through faux shaming.

 

[primetime]

You mean like how in the VHS days you'd just use two VCRs and make a copy off of a master to trade? Because that's been the case with this community since before TMF existed.



Welcome to the internet, where piracy and stealing leads to tech innovations, new distribution methods for content consumption, and consumer friendly pricing models and sites. It's the internet, you're not going to stop it, and to be frank, this website built an entire generational base of people who put together what little content there was and gave it to each other, or posted pictures from magazines for free consumption, or for pieces of art, or stories, or what have you. I get the producer side because people don't want their products stolen when they could break even or make money, but the people hammered by it are the big time producers, not the smaller ones who have a myriad of excuses as to why their venture isn't near a market leader like Tickle Abuse without understanding product strategies and business models that would make them more competitive/fill niches within the marketplace and return more on investment/differentiate themselves in an saturated market.

I personally love how every time something like this is brought up there is the mythical shaming process for behaviors as well as content producers fawning over their digital content rights in the most banal and simplistic of manners. If your business model is just open up a clips4sale and do a two camera shoot without real investment in cameras and lighting and, hell, bondage rigs, your product is going to look like it isn't worth making an investment in. If your business model is posting on the video section of this forum, and that's it, you deserve to suffer because you're often enough not doing enough to stand out in this marketplace. At least now our clips section isn't built on retread reposts.

I get why producers post about it. Again, it's about their investment, and they should be protective. But let's not act shocked that porn on the internet gets pirated, or that for many people it either is a circumstance of content cost or distribution method. That's the better way to attack the issue. Not through faux shaming.

What are you trying to say? Copyright infringement is not new and illegal copying has been going on for decades. Everyone knows this. But dubbing VHS tapes back in the 80s and 90s is the SAME as people downloading material off the internet. It was WRONG then and it is WRONG now. So what is your point?

Of course people are still going to do it. Crime will never go away. You call it faux shaming, but what else would you do? You have to appeal to their morals (or lack of). A great business model will not prevent thievery. Tickle Abuse has had their clips posted everywhere. The only real way you can deter is hoping they go to jail or shame them. That is the point I am making. One guy is trying to justify his argument by saying "everyone does it" and my counter was why do it that way instead of paying? Have them explain why it is better to steal rather than coming up with a fool proof way to prevent illegal downloading. There is no fool proof way as of yet.

 

[SoleMates]

If your business model is just open up a clips4sale and do a two camera shoot without real investment in cameras and lighting and, hell, bondage rigs, your product is going to look like it isn't worth making an investment in.

It's a chicken-and-egg problem, IMHO. The only product worth "investing" in is the product that already has the kind of capital available to dump into professional equipment... which means they don't really need your investment. The guys who are hoping to start small and bankroll enough to start producing better-quality clips are SOL.

I'd also like to point out that you're basically saying (although I kinda agree) that anyone who wants a shot in hell of "making it" in this business has to compete with the guys who've been doing it for a while and have a huge established customer base. And, basically ape their product (bondage rigs, etc.) - but nobody'll "invest" in a newcomer when they can get those same videos from the established vendor. I liken it to my waking up tomorrow and deciding to go into the OS business with the intent to beat Microsoft. Probably ain't gonna happen. These aren't excuses, they're fact. Also also wik, speaking as someone who's advertised outside of the Video Clips forum, the amount of traffic it brings in is negligible at best. You spend hours uploading samples to Wu's or the Mouse Pad, spamming Twitter, and getting your account yanked on YouTube and DailyMotion for two extra hits a day. I get more traffic from C4S's studio updates page.

On the other hand, both Microsoft and Apple started in garages. So, there you go. Although I think in general the market is just saturated. Everyone and their sister is making foot clips, and a lot of them are throwing in tickling now that they know it's a thing. Go big or go home is the order of the day.

That said, I think it's ridiculous for people to say piracy only hurts the big guys, but then imply that it's okay because they're making enough money anyway. 'cause after all, they wouldn't be where they are today if no one supported their craft in enough volume for them to GET to where they are today.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; support the producers whose work you enjoy so that they can keep making it.

 

[TripleH1]

I'm curious to know how many people who have a problem with it download their music and movies for free, I'll say a lot.

 

[meangry]

What are you trying to say? Copyright infringement is not new and illegal copying has been going on for decades. Everyone knows this. But dubbing VHS tapes back in the 80s and 90s is the SAME as people downloading material off the internet. It was WRONG then and it is WRONG now. So what is your point?

Of course people are still going to do it. Crime will never go away. You call it faux shaming, but what else would you do? You have to appeal to their morals (or lack of). A great business model will not prevent thievery. Tickle Abuse has had their clips posted everywhere. The only real way you can deter is hoping they go to jail or shame them. That is the point I am making. One guy is trying to justify his argument by saying "everyone does it" and my counter was why do it that way instead of paying? Have them explain why it is better to steal rather than coming up with a fool proof way to prevent illegal downloading. There is no fool proof way as of yet.

Because your sentiment is so goody goody that it defies any sense of tangible reality. VHS dubbing is something people have been doing since the advent of the VCR, whether it was shows on television or sporting events or that, or hell, movie rentals that people did it with from their local video store. Yeah, people broke copyright law. People stole music with Napster. People stole DVDs and that. You know how the industry combated that? Well, the industry did very little, and still do very little, and bitch and moan. It's the distributors and the distribution methods that change. If you make content more accessible, whether by distribution or by price point, it makes customers who are in the grey who might steal but really just want easy accessibility to spend their money rather than pirate.

Also, it's ridiculous to call for jail time and all that sorta shit. This forum was built on pirating the content of other producers, artists, and photographers who were generating tickling content at a time where they didn't have a wide span access point to vendor their wares without have to incur advertising costs. How much money should BAC have made on all those dusty scans of his works? Why are Drew70s tickling picture scans still in their own little cubbie? Or small tickling clips from mainstream or from companies back in the day before the proliferation of content hubs and high speed internet connections and large sized hard drives?

There will never be a fool proofing method. And you know what, there never should be. I simply think it is ignorant and gladhanding to be so fatalistic with porn piracy, and quite frankly, I think the fact that producers and people posting here can't just be like "Yeah, we don't do that on TMF" and leave it at that is just a piss poor excuse to have the same talk that's been had for years.