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What happened to C.A.B?

It's been explained numerous times what happened, why don't we just drop it and move on? There's nothing else to be gained here.

Exactly. What's more important... to be right or do what's right? Give forums to people who more than likely never had a voice and they insist they be heard ad nauseum. It's exhausting.
:beathorse:

I could care less if he's here or not; I don't have an opinion either way.
 
It's also exhausting that a little discussion on a forum made for just that be frowned upon and scoffed at/shamed. That's exactly the kind of graceful nature that makes people want to lurk instead of contribute here. Nobody else is being stopped from entering and saying their piece or providing insight. It's not about who's right. It's about general curiosity and expanding everyone's thoughts including your own. That's why discussion exists. If people sit on their passions, you have silence every time. This forum could stand to have more of the opposite.

Nobody has 29 posts of repetition like a political discussion. I'm the type of person in regular life that says something when I have something to say (hence no thousands of posts since 2002 of ONLY being interested in my own opinion and flapping my gums just for jollies) so I find your dismissal of conversation itself to be very naive and rude.
 
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The fact of the matter is that the TMF is not the "end all be all" for tickling based artwork on the internet. Since its inception, artists here have come and gone. Heck, I could rattle off a list of names of artists I've seen leave over the years for their own various reasons; C.A.B. is just the most recent to do so. I still see his stuff, old and new, on his Deviantart page. If anyone misses him so much, go to his page and see his stuff there. Say hi to him.

Personally, I feel some of the rules here in regards to the artwork is silly, but I've always worked within the parameters of the rules when posting pictures and I've never had anything pulled or even had any warnings from a moderator. However, I've seen the way the wind has been blowing over the past few years and it seemed to me that more moderation has been in effect in the artwork forum, which I didn't care for. To me, it just felt like there was this sword of Damocles overhead that was just waiting to fall. Rather then cry and moan about it, I just started posting almost exclusively on my Deviantart page. I can draw what I want, how I want and post it. From there people can love it or hate it as they see fit.

I certainly don't envy Myriads for all the work he noted he had to do about trying to ascertain the age of a cartoon rabbit. Honestly, I'd rather throw myself in front of a moving train than be forced to get caught up in such nonsense. May the Force be with you, sir! We live in a world where virtually all female anime characters look like 10 year girls with huge boobs and this PC younger generation wants nothing more than to tattle on everyone else about anything. Moderating over such nonsense is nothing I'd ever want to do.

As an artist, it's frustrating feeling like I have to know exactly when Shadowcat of the X-Men turned 18 if I feel like drawing her in a picture, to use an example. She's not real. There is absolutely nothing from our real world that can ever harm her. I can understand the "No one under 18" rule for videos, celebrities and other real world stuff...but for fictional characters? To me that seems silly. Does it matter if Shadowcat is 17 or 18 in a picture? (And with Marvels sliding time scale, each year that goes by in real time means she turned 18 all the more recent; talk about a headache!) Again, she doesn't exist. However, I - or in the case of the TMF - Myriads has to worry about such an odd thing. As I already said, I never had any problems with anything I posted here, but I know there are the tattletales out there just waiting to be the internet white knight. My personal way of dealing with it? I just don't post much artwork here anymore. I have much more control and much less worry posting on my DA page instead.

Anyway, forgive my rambling but issues of art and (possible) censorship are of great interest to me and I wanted to babble for a hot minute. Myriads and the mods (that should TOTALLY be a name for a band!), you all have a job I would never want and my hat is off to you all for the efforts you put into things, even if it results in a decision I may not agree with.

"Be excellent to each other".
 
Well you're talking about someone specifically and continuing the conversation and not on a general subject.

I find it incredibly rude to harp on a situation that is specifically about someone. Someone is being torn apart in a forum and it is my belief it should be dropped and voicing my opinion.
 
On behalf of the artists who collaborated with C.A.B., or maybe I speak for myself alone, I have high regard for his artistic/influential leadership in this forum. It's sad that at times, drawing "this kind of" art could have built a tower of babel. It can be so fleeting, you know. I'd miss his artistic presence, humor and intelligence around here. Anyway, there’s still D.A. to get back to – it’s *&^%$#@ because I’m inactive there for 2 years! Gone are the works he posted for TMF only.
 
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Something as obtuse as the listlessness of variety makes dandruff of us all. Conscience and circumstance travel headlong into the abyss of relative action. Furthermore, if there were some aggravated reciprocity for the ongoing nature of such actions, then the abstract focus could have congenial affect. It is without malice that the actuary of this particular involvement be seen.

If you consider this in its totality, then this thread has probably gone on too long...my opinion. :hmm:
 
Lol now people are repeating themselves about how people are repeating themselves. Lol makes sense.

To clarify where I'm coming from,

http://ticklingforum.com/showthread.php?93201-About-Minors-quot-Ageing-quot-and-Missed-Violations

There is no way to enforce a No Minors rule, especially a Zero Tolerance one, if we allow this loophole to be exploited. We all agree that we do not want the TMF to become a place for pedophiles to go to see/read about kids getting tickled. However, if we take a 14-year-old character and allow him/her to be "aged" arbitrarily, we all know that people are still thinking of the character as they've become accustomed to them....a 14-year-old. The character has been drawn as a kid, been created as a kid and it's a very thin and weak stretch to just say "Oh, just imagine they're older." Now, we know that in the realms of fiction and artwork, there are no real people involved, but this is not the point and will not be debated. This is not the Supreme Court, this is a privately owned (and free to join) website with rules of its own that supercede people's rights of expression when those rights interfere with the overall mission of the site. We strive to allow people to express themselves however they want, but as in any civilised society, there must be limits.

http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Disney_Princess

Snow White 14 years old

Aurora 16 years old

Ariel 16 years old

Jasmine 15 years old
http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Jasmine
 
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Well i'm not that surprised at his reaction given my own interaction with him.
I once commented a work of his on DA . Praising it in fact and pointed out a minor spelling error he made.
His reaction was to immediately block me.
He corrected that error though.
 
Well i'm not that surprised at his reaction given my own interaction with him.
I once commented a work of his on DA . Praising it in fact and pointed out a minor spelling error he made.
His reaction was to immediately block me.
He corrected that error though.

Hmm. Interesting. I had exactly the same experience with him on DA. I complimented one of his works, but pointed out in passing that a Roman numeral was wrong. He fixed it, but blocked me from commenting for six months. I thought he'd probably done it by accident, because he just wanted to delete the comment about a now corrected error. But maybe not.

Whatever.
 
Lol now people are repeating themselves about how people are repeating themselves. Lol makes sense.

To clarify where I'm coming from,

Snow White 14 years old

Snow White spent an indeterminate amount of time living with the dwarves, and then again enjoyed her Glass coffin and her deathly slumber 'for a long time' before the Prince kisses her awake. As she is swept off to marry the gent at films end it's assumed she is of age in cannon by this point. Disney also spoke to the matter of this at the time of the film saying that Snow was 'older' by the films end, and there was nothing wrong with the kiss or marriage.

Aurora 16 years old

Aurora is indeed noted to be sixteen at the time of the opening of her film. In fact it's her sixteenth birthday party where she falls into her Maleficent induced slumber. A state in which she then spends 'several years' in until her 'Prince' comes and wakes her with a kiss. She is now of age. Disney himself mentioned that the character didn't receive the kiss until it was 'proper' at the time of the movies release to similar criticism. So after she is awakened the character is of age.

Ariel 16 years old

As of the cannon film The Little Mermaid II: Return to the Sea Ariel is portrayed as a mother and has given birth and it is set 'several years' after the first film. Character is of age in this period of the work.

Jasmine 15 years old

As of the cannon film "Aladdin and the King of Thieves" Jasmine and the Prince are set to wed as 'she is now of age, and it's referenced as several years since the 1st film. Character is of age in this period of the work.


And this is the sort of stuff that I go thru when art or stories gets reported. Every one of these works was cleared on review.

You know what was not cleared? C.A.B.'s Wizard of Oz piece that featured Dorothy as portrayed by Judy Garland, who was underage during the entire filming of the movie. A case can be made for the character Dorothy being of age by the end of the Oz lore, but there is no case where the character as portrayed by Garland is thus the piece was killed under the age rules.

These are the same rules that I have applied to Kim possible, The Harry potter characters, Umpteen superheroes and so forth over the years. There are periods in all their works where they are clearly minors, but there also are periods where they are clearly of age. So just like we allow the descriptor 'High School student' in stories because a senior can be 18, these things move thru.

This aspect of our age rule has always been the blurriest. Fictional characters often appear as many ages in a work, and become horridly subjective. Hell once I had to make a ruling as to the age of Scooby Doo. The stuff gets stupid silly. In contrast, the age rule when applied to real people is a sharp knife. The Olsen Twins, Bella Thorn, and dozens more have been subject to it over our 15 years, and we continue to kill all underage content taken of any actress if it was taken before they were off age. That is a much simpler set of rulings to make. The age rule as conceived was designed for photos and stories, and we never considered fictional works when we set it up. The Aging rule was applied as a patch, and that then opened the door to what you see in all four of you examples above enjoy because fictional characters age in their works.

An additional aside, our age rule also applies to members. And I've always employed the same 'show me the facts' attitude to booting people accused of underage use of the forum. If they state their age and it's minor they go. If they link us to a profile elsewhere that clearly indicates minor-hood they go. But if I have no hard proof they can skate. I'm sure many many users here were on the forum before they should be, and enjoyed that aspect of my rereading of the rules. There are many members on forum today that would have had their accounts closed if I didn't demand 'beyond a doubt' as my criteria.

As members you've always been able to form and voice your opinions about many things here. But often you base your thoughts on only the forward facing aspects of the forum that you can see. Very very few of you are aware of the rest of the stuff that often goes on behind the walls, where you never see. The balances made between ideals and reality, between what we want to do with what we can do. There is often way more to the rules you see here, why they are here, how they work, and so forth.

We've kept the place up and going for 15 years. And while we might enjoy the attention of a laundry basket of socks, we don't, and never have had a problem with users looking for underage material. That was something I stepped on hard back when.. well some of the folks here today were minors themselves.

We see your reports we look at the works and act based on our research. Sometimes those calls are subjective, and on these we act with a majority rules policy.

Myriads
 
Talk is Good

The length of this thread is a healthy sign, saying that C.A.B's work and departure, the Forum's rules and procedures, and the question of sexualizing the young are all matters worth discussing. More communication, particularly of the open and reasoned kind, is good, no?<p>
C.A.B.'s talent, including his ability to mimic the styles of 'toons and comics, is impressive. As a dilettante who collaborated with him on brief scripts for two comics parodies, I recognized his strong temperament and perfectionism. He, of course, is entitled to withdraw any work he contributes to a public forum, for any reason.<p>


Myriads has been plainspoken about the Forum's rules concerning underage depictions, as well as the often ticklish task of deciding whether a post violates the proscription. The Mods reserve the right to do what they see as necessary to not only preserve comity here, but also to shield the Forum from prosecution from legal quarters and critical censure from societal watchdogs. I don't see the Mods' hand as unduly heavy, merely practical.<br>

As an occasional contributor, I understand the risks I face by playing with or ignoring the rules. (Such risks are also present for those of us who play with others' copyrighted characters, a subject which prompted another fascinating lengthy thread in the Story Forum.) I also understand that the Mods reserve the right to reject a post for any reason. If I don't agree with that, I can either try to change the Forum's rules or decide not to post here. It's not different from the wider world.
<p>
The Forum IS poorer for C.A.B's departure. But, there's lots of talent and playfulness remaining. Let's get busy...
 
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I guess we'll just take your word for it then when it comes to Disney princesses. Maybe future artists will be able to use this loophole if they know the right people.

So, I'm wondering are there still any Kim possible pieces on here and is going to bat this hard for one member that you're friends with and work with a valuable use of mod time?

And as far as being here underage, I would have rather been banned than have to deal with the accusations of special treatment for going on a decade.
 
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I guess we'll just take your word for it then when it comes to Disney princesses. Maybe future artists will be able to use this loophole if they know the right people.

Anyone who presents a work gets it judged under the criteria. Known or unknown to us. The policy is in place to handle whatever and whomever comes along. There are no 'right people'. When a report is made, the first mod to catch it, is the person who makes the first call on it. Then any other mod can comment or review that call, or if the post stood, a future report might spark a review by a different mod on their review, which they may make without referencing the earlier one.

So, I'm wondering are there still any Kim possible pieces on here and is going to bat this hard for one member that you're friends with and work with a valuable use of mod time?

There are Kim pieces still standing somewhere in the art forum because I remember reviewing them and falling into the wormhole of Kim fandom to find out that she was of age after a certain point in the cannon of her series. I don't remember who posted them, and I didn't know them from Adam when I reviewed the art.

I don't see what is so hard to gronk about the concept that I try to allow the greatest interpretation of the rules for any and all creative endeavors posted and questioned here, regardless of who posted them. It's what I've always tried to do, and continue to do.

If you want to go dig up a bunch of posts and report them, they will get reviewed again and upheld or pulled based on what is done.

And as far as being here underage, I would have rather been banned than have to deal with the accusations of special treatment for going on a decade.

I wasn't speaking about you in specific above Chicago. It was illustration how the policies of the forum, cover all sorts of aspects of age, and how my, and staffs interpretations of them can have effects.

I really can sympathize at how much it annoys you to think you received special treatment here just because of whom you happened to end up being friends with. People who have such opinions seem to hold the idea that no one can be objective in their behaviors. Which is so sadly cynical. It leads to the concept that people in positions of power can't have friends, or make any sort of connections and still be objective. Heck, you felt that yourself when you were a chat mod here. So I do get where you come from here. It's annoying when people cannot seem to think one can be objective even when you are.

Myriads
 
I have no idea if I got special treatment or not. I am sure I broke rules and I have been scolded. Maybe even temporarily banned from a subsection or two. I don't know what went on behind the scenes, but I know what people have said about me when it comes to special treatment.

What's so hard to 'gronk' is why you opened up this can of worms to discuss and debate and justify at all. At any rate, it's still not clear what is allowed and what's not but I guess that's for the mods to decide. I'd love to hear from one of the group that voted against the baby rabbit with tits
 
What's so hard to 'gronk' is why you opened up this can of worms to discuss and debate and justify at all. At any rate, it's still not clear what is allowed and what's not but I guess that's for the mods to decide. I'd love to hear from one of the group that voted against the baby rabbit with tits

It got opened up because a very well known member of the forum left it. And I felt the people who were asking deserved a reply.

One I did that, people proceeded to speculate on things in such a way that would be considered GR stuff in most circumstances. So I offered further information. Which opened up further debate about the forum's polices and practices.

Most online communities would have let the whole thing go with zero response. And in fact might have suppressed the very posts that asked about what happened. That is standard SOP on almost every forum I also post on. I've always tried to be open with the members here, and provide them with room to debate me, and through me the forums policies.

I've kept engaging in the thread whenever it's become clear that greater explanation was needed to show the process and thinking we have here to folks. Your own questions, which have all be fair ones to ask are part of this process.

Myriads
 
I'm wondering one thing, Myr:<br>
Was the decision on Scooby Doo based on dog years?

Heh, Actually yes, it was. In an early episode Shaggy refers to Scooby as his friend for 'many years' which made him at least three in the cannon, or 21 in translated years, and thus 'adult'.

The same call disallowed Scrappy Doo, as he was a 'pup' and thus not more then 1 year old. That and he's also annoying as hell.

Myriads
 
This is getting complicated, lol!
Maybe next time... we haven't even started talking about the adulthood of bots.

Oops, they are objects.
 
This is getting complicated, lol!
Maybe next time... we haven't even started talking about the adulthood of bots.

Oops, they are objects.

Oh, but are the sentient in the material? Do they have 'rights' within the culture? How do we measure 'age' with an artificial intellect? Oh the questions are endless.

For example. A 60 year old robot conciseness is hosed into the very realistic android body of a 10 year old child-like android body. Is this a minor? Should it be removed? What call to make?

This is why I get out the stupid mop and bucket for these things. I get to make a call based on philosophy, context, and on and on and so forth.

Myriads
 
How about Hot Rod of the Autobots? Like most Transformers, he was at least several thousand years old (if not millions) but he was one of the "teenage" Transformers. Technically a minor by his own cultures standards, but he's older than the human race.

That's a real pickle!

What's the call, Myriads? ;)
 
I feel like the rule was straightforward and easy for everyone to understand but now we've made it incredibly complicated. A no tolerance rule becomes a sorta tolerant rule, if you have a good argument to confuse with and can find obscure references where said character appeared in adult form, even if

we all know that people are still thinking of the character as they've become accustomed to them
 
How about Hot Rod of the Autobots? Like most Transformers, he was at least several thousand years old (if not millions) but he was one of the "teenage" Transformers. Technically a minor by his own cultures standards, but he's older than the human race.

That's a real pickle!

What's the call, Myriads? ;)

Draw it, post it, make sure you identify it as Hot Rod, and if it gets reported I'll make the call.

Until then.... You can imagine or play the home game.
 
I feel like the rule was straightforward and easy for everyone to understand but now we've made it incredibly complicated. A no tolerance rule becomes a sorta tolerant rule, if you have a good argument to confuse with and can find obscure references where said character appeared in adult form, even if

And it should be straight forward. But you get things like.... Supergirl.

Supergirl has been both a minor and an adult in different parts of her history. So do I just say no Supergirl ever at all? Do we over sensor to 'just be safe'?

I've felt that the rule has to work both ways. If I always exclude shit that is from a characters minor period, Then how can I exclude stuff that comes from their legal periods?

We've always said if a character is of age in the source material, and you create a tickling work that is contained within that period, it's cool. You want to write some fanfic of adult Harry Potter and his wife? You have a green light. Because of that last chapter in the books. Now you can't take the characters from book one and suddenly magic them into adult hood to end run the rule, but if you take them as the adults they are in that last chapter. Go have fun.

It shouldn't be this hard but it gets this hard.

And again, these sort of calls are always about cartoons. Or stories. Real people, real photos and videos are cut and dry. You don't see underage real pictures of lees here.

If you were in charge perhaps you'd run it differently. And that is cool. It might work better then how our way has turned out. But our ways worked pretty well so far. So we stay with them.

Myriads
 
Well, the mention of Supergirl... There was the comic of Superman, and, as I recall, Superboy. So, the original authors didn't make the mature gal Superwoman. Dang, this is getting complicated.
 
Myriads,

It's a credit to you that you are willing to address these issues at length ad naseum with a high degree of civility.
The arguments being made here have certainly been made many times before and I'm sure it gets tiresome having
to explain why a position is repeatedly taken and policy is enforced. The people making their case feel that it's valid
and it's good that you don't dismiss them out of hand and are willing to address them.
webmaster joe
 
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