Cack =/= Art

[moonknight80200]

Rgevskiy I agree with the bottom and the top of your list, it just gets dodgy around the middle...but like Kalamos said, we should not allow this to degenerate into a "my artist is better than your artist" thread, so I'll put down my pom-poms now and refrain from my continued chorus of "Snail, Snail, he's our man..." after simply saying that I've seen the guy's work improve drastically over the years and I don't see how anyone could rate it as just one slot above the "cack" guys on any list. Look at his early Marvel and JLU stuff and then the stuff he's posting now. A world of difference.

He's not the only one though. As others have said, Khali (her line art) and Chimp have gotten better too, while others (who have been posting for just as long if not longer) have not discernably improved at all. Their stuff looks exactly as it always has. I'm not sure what role constructive criticism or lack thereof played in any of that, but the kind of pointless "nice pic" fawning that Headsnap described could not have helped at all.

The issues raised by Webmaster Joe are quite valid, and I think those who wish to offer criticism or even (in the case of obvious drek) flatly state that a pic isn't very good should be able to do so without being labled as big heartless meanies or whatever.

Oh, and Headsnap said

"OH MY GOD THIS DRAWING IS CTHULUS ILLEGITIMATE SPAWN PLEASE BURN IT".

LOL! I know the feeling!

 

[TKLVR18]

Snail Shell
Your works is not cack. =) But... In Russia this is called a "popsa". It means: Numerous, not highly artistic, but bright products in popular subjects. It is not bad at all, but "popsa" - not the best way for artist.

to All
I conditionally divide artists into groups:
Cack killalot, Rajee, sorry...
Low (or popsa) Snail Shell, Falcon.
Mediocre (Transitive level) C_Tickler, Rgevskiy 😉 , Pabuluz*, Khali.
High Chimp, Umojar, Friday-13(she are only lazy).
Ultra-High (fully commercial level) Bandito, Kalamos, Tomato Dragon..
Genius Scavenger, Ozzy..
In examples only artists well familiar to me


Actually, i think, only mediocre and high-level artists need some criticism to improve.

Cack and Low-level artists if they really want to become better, should get some art education independently, outside of a forum.

Ultra-High-level artists sometimes need in other sorts of criticism - criticism of the designer's ideas.

It just my opinion. =)

*Yes, yes, I know, the Pab has many fans, but "to copy looks of Ozzy's style" and "be the second Ozzy" - different things. The understanding of gear of style has highest importance.

OK Rg, I have only the highest opinion of you, always have, and always will. But is rating people by your opinions really fair? You called SS low...I'd put him at ultra-high level at least. I think a lot of this "cack vs. art" stuff is opinion..one man's trash is another man's treasure. SS's drawings are on my display pics on MSN. Rajee is awesome, if a bit overly-cartoonish....lots of people like it that way. I just wanted to point that out.

~K

 

[Headsnap]

OK Rg, I have only the highest opinion of you, always have, and always will. But is rating people by your opinions really fair? You called SS low...I'd put him at ultra-high level at least. I think a lot of this "cack vs. art" stuff is opinion..one man's trash is another man's treasure. SS's drawings are on my display pics on MSN. Rajee is awesome, if a bit overly-cartoonish....lots of people like it that way. I just wanted to point that out.

~K

HELLO SIR

You too appeared to have missed the point. I don't care if someone has a style that I dislike; that's not the issue. The issue is the casual praise of artists who are not very good at drawing, and the tendancy of such artists to post drawings which are bad en masse.

I can't even be arsed arguing this anymore, the thread has become tl;dr. Read what I've written and all will become clear.

 

[tickle_fan03]

The "cack" artwork that you are referring to,have they been produced by artists that draw for a living/is there profession in life??If not then who cares if it is "cack"?Surely it is purely for a hobby/entertainment to go along with their fetish,then why don't you leave them alone.If you personally don't like a particular artist,like others have said,then don't click on the links to their work,simple as.

You need to give people credit for their work as well as just criticising it.An artist has to start somewhere and over time their work can develop and improve......which some have mentioned already.

I personally find it very difficult to criticise artwork as I can't draw to save my life or have any talent whatsoever,so therefore I respect those who take the time and effort to produce drawings and then share their work with everyone.

It could be like Marmite,you either love it or hate it.

 

[moonknight80200]

OK Rg, I have only the highest opinion of you, always have, and always will. But is rating people by your opinions really fair? You called SS low...I'd put him at ultra-high level at least. I think a lot of this "cack vs. art" stuff is opinion..one man's trash is another man's treasure. SS's drawings are on my display pics on MSN. Rajee is awesome, if a bit overly-cartoonish....lots of people like it that way. I just wanted to point that out.

~K

Sorry TKLVR, but I have to respectfully disagree with your enitre post (Except for the part about Snail rocking the hizzouse!). I don't think the "cack vs. art" thing is entirely, or even mostly, subjective. While I happened to disagree with where Rg placed Snail Shell on his list, he was attempting to rate the artists in question on the basis of their mastery of technique, level of development and achievement of technical perfection. While there is some opinion in there (as with anything else) it's no different than judging a figure skating contest or a contestant on American Idol. In that sense, it is possible to say that some are working on higher levels of creativity, ability, artistic perfection, and pure talent than others.

William Hung may be an "awesome" singer to me and his vocal style may rock my world because "I like it that way". To my mind, he may be on equal footing with Pavarotti. But while I'm entitled to my opinion on the matter, that doesn't mean that my arguement can't be disproven on the basis of tone, pitch, phrasing, range, etc., etc., ad infinitum. Now if I wanted to make a case for Placido Domingo being better than Pavarotti, since they are both so close to the ideal, then we might get into matters of opinion (kind of like comparing Tomato Dragon and Ozzy).

Art and artistry, whether musical, visual, or whatever, can be measured to some degree.

 

[slacker2114]

To put it simply, someone once said...

"Those who can, do. Those who can't become critics".

 

[scavenger]

A tricky discussion this is indeed. I would have avoided replying here, but as my name was mentioned a few times in this thread...

I myself got my own share of criticism at art school. A bit too much of it, actually. My teachers considered my work not "arty" enough; too commercial, being kitch and all...
So I've come to hate all "criticism". To my opinion, the only constructive criticism is good criticism. Encourage people. They will create more and learn through experience. It worked for me so it will work for other people.
If I see something I like -even when it is just a small bit of the drawing- I will point that out. If I can't say anything nice about a work of art, I say nothing at all. The approach of "like it or leave it".
Being an artist (or "drawer"/painter in a more humble way of speaking) I feel that I have no right to criticise their creations. It would make me feel -like Kalamos also said- a total jerk, which I am not.

Also, to reflect on Rgevskiy's list -while I appreciate his admiration for my work- I am far from a genius, and I certainly do not consider myself to be better than others artists like Bandito, Kalamos, Tomato Dragon or any other one.
Otherwise I wouldn't be doing tribute art to these fellow artists. 🙂

 

[rajee]

Cack killalot, Rajee, sorry...

I do believe I have been challenged. As Yo Sammity Sam would say, "Those are fighting words, sir". LOL

You want to see my ultimate artwork, you got it.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Folks,

This thread is rolling back and forth like a ship in a bad storm. For those of you who feel that, because you're not artists, you have no right to critique,
my response is...you're not critiquing...you're giving an opinion. Don't be so timid. You're entitled to an opinion. Otherwise, you're saying that you can have an opinion on something only if you have practical experience in the field or medium. We'll leave those pesky matters like wars and laws and stuff to the guys and dolls with the degrees. I THINK NOT!

As for some of you artists who feel a knee jerk reaction to giving an opinion, because you've gotten a lot of bad ones from teachers or the public, you are doing a great diservice to your fellow artists. You above all can not only render an opinion, but can offer something the layperson can't...technical advice.

As far as critiquing goes...forget it...few truely know how. Most critiques (even professional ones) are little more than opinions. A true and good critique can be defined by example...a food critic who hates Italian food, but can still go into an Italian restaurant and give it five stars on the merits of it's food and service, not his personal preferences and opinions.

Art is the same way and it can be critiqued on merits such as skill. A person who picks up a pencil and doodles some quasi stick figures does not deserve the same recognition as a person who spent years in school or self teaching
to the point that they have mastered the fundamentals and created a style
from those fundamentals. Again, it's a diservice to the true artist, when she is lumped in with the scribbler and doodler, who has not earned that distinction, but rather, has been given it.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

I myself got my own share of criticism at art school.
...
So I've come to hate all "criticism".

While I am mostly self taught - and it is somewhat of a nightmare, realising pros get what I have to scavenge for... - I briefly attended comic-drawing school.

One of the teacher TRAMPLED my ego, shredding it to confetti, and dancing a wild polka with nailed boots on its sorry remains.

I felt so ashamed I couldn't bear to *sign* my pics for roughly a whole year after the episode.
You can recognise pics from that period because I just inked in a small sign, not my full signature.

Slowly and painfully recovered from the experience - but I, too, have a healthy dislike for "hearfelt" criticism.
Sometimes I confront my "test subjects" for ideas.
Maybe this boob looks too fake, the expression here is too pained, or the girl there is too well muscled.
We all need directions, especially because it's tough judging our pieces on our own.

It is like choosing a favourite among your children.
Not something parents like to do.
And drawing a pic is, in however small scale, giving birth to a new, miniature, life.

...

Either that, or somebody doped my tea again...

😀

I am far from a genius, and I certainly do not consider myself to be better than others artists like Bandito, Kalamos, Tomato Dragon or any other one.
Otherwise I wouldn't be doing tribute art to these fellow artists. 🙂

Now, that's a nasty problem: self esteem vs self awareness.

I usually draw as if I were doing my ultimate masterpiece, while expecting the same kind of feedback as if I had posted any other piece of mundane art.

That's the only way I can retain a modicum of sanity and self-respect.
If I were to think my stuff is the very best, the lack of replies would "kill" me.
While, if I thought I posted shit, I would never bother to draw to begin with.

...

What I do second, about this whole thread is: please, stop telling ppl they are "the very best artist that ever happened to grace the world with some utterly wonderful piece of art".
First, it never happened to me, so I'm growing rightfully jealous.
Second, even if it were to happen, I would never believe it - and no, I cannot give freebies out.
Morandilas knows my address and he packs lead.
Third, it is *extremely* offensive to all the other artists out there, even if you didn't mean it.

And after the second or third time you say that, it loses some of the effect.
Be sparse and fair with compliments. If everything ppl post is great, there is no point for us to spend HOURS painting our pics.

I mean, have you ever seen the kind of effort published artists devote in making a single panel?
Just check Corwin's or Scavenger's threads.
It's a whole load of fine work, and it involves time, and tools and stuff.
And it ain't come cheap.

You can't call a single pic "wonderful", and dismiss a full comic with "nice", or ignore it altogether.
It's a matter of perspective.

Don't make us start drawing stick figures, eh?

😉

...

K, somebody pour me a tea.
I'm parched.

...

Oh, and what webmaster joe said.
Stop lumping ppl.
I hate lumps.

 

[laughinggaszone]

Ok...I will give as close to a real critique as possible, as an example, using yourself and the three artists listed in your post.

Of the three of you, I rank you in overall skill with a comment on your strengths/weaknesses based only on the art published through MTJ, you rank as follows:

*Scavenger - great skill ability in rendering intricate detail
in both background art and foreground subjects, maintains
a consistent, though exagerated anatomy.
*Kalamos - great skill in real anatomical proporation. Handles "life like"
characters with high marks, while still able to give his work a cartoon feel.
*Tomato Dragon - fundamentals in cartoon art are extremely high. Able to create anatomical exageration with consistency.
*Bandito - cartoonish style is inconsistent in anatomical exageration but a propensity for a high degree of detail and unique angles. With practice, can become a first rate artist.

Now...in order of my personal preference...

*Bandito
*Tomato Dragon
*Scavenger
*Kalamos

Quite different from the critique and has nothing to do with the skill of any of these artists. A title each has earned, though not equally.
webmaster joe

 

[Argus1124]

My two cents?

Folks, I've been "lurking" for years and this is the first time I've really felt the need to chime in. But this point is important:

As my old friend Jim Christopher said on the "My World -- Welcome To It" album: "Remember, the Constitution does NOT guarentee the right to be listened to!" Upon reflection, I have to believe that goes for all of our friends living under other systems of government, too...

The fact is, if you were to ask ten people what constitutes the best artwork in ANY collection, you'd likely get eleven answers. No matter what the artists do (or what the criticism of them is like) there's going to be some that you will like, and some that you won't. The only reasonable response is: if there is someone whose work you do not appreciate, don't view it. Move on to the next posting in the subforum and get on with your life. Calling it "cack" or "just above cack" because you don't like it is pointless - odds are, someone else here thinks it's great.

As for our friends who are actually posting their work...

Posting something in a public forum, for all of the world to see (and flame, potentially) has to be one of the most personally courageous acts possible for an artist. Trust me on this -- while I can't draw anything to save my life, I have done the equivalent with fiction I have written. I applaud all of you for having the sheer guts to do what you do, especially in this blue-nosed, mind-everyone-else's-business, rat-tank world we're inhabiting.

Keep working. Keep practicing. Keep going. Freedom is important. And anyone who does not realize that this is freedom of expression we are discussing has not been paying attention...

<getting down off of soapbox now>

 

[Kalamos]

Not too bad. Got fourth.
Out of 4...

...

As usual, I don't even qualify for bronze.

...

😀

...

Just joking.

You gotta see my next project, that's going to be something a bit different...

😉

 

[laughinggaszone]

Not too bad. Got fourth.
Out of 4...

...

As usual, I don't even qualify for bronze.

...

😀



Just joking.

You gotta see my next project, that's going to be something a bit different...

😉

Yeah, but you got second in skill level for the critique, so don't sweat it man. I AM a good artist, that gets paid and I got folks who use harsher words than cack to describe my stuff. You do good work, but the style and more to the matter, the subject matter doesn't lure me in. But I will check out your next project.
webmaster joe

 

[laughinggaszone]

Posting something in a public forum, for all of the world to see (and flame, potentially) has to be one of the most personally courageous acts possible for an artist. Trust me on this -- while I can't draw anything to save my life, I have done the equivalent with fiction I have written. I applaud all of you for having the sheer guts to do what you do, especially in this blue-nosed, mind-everyone-else's-business, rat-tank world we're inhabiting.

<getting down off of soapbox now>

While I can't disagree with your personal feelings, I can say that it's always been easy peasy for me. I started writing fan fiction before moving off into novels. Same with art. Posted it on the internet. Never felt I was almost giving birth or any other world beating life experience. Maybe that's because I consider myself a hack writer/artist. I do projects (professional and personal)and move on. Some last longer than others and I am proud of most of them, but none of them are so important to me that I want to call it my kid.
webmaster joe

 

[Kalamos]

Yeah, but you got second in skill level for the critique, so don't sweat it man.

Sweating? Who? Me?
No way! It's not perspiration. You know... it's... aw, man.
This is a fetish site! What you think I'm doing, with my other hand, eh?

😀

...

Just joking, just a little double entendre on sweating.

😉

...

You do good work, but the style and more to the matter, the subject matter doesn't lure me in. But I will check out your next project.

Eh, I guess you'll be a bit disappointed, then.
Got plans for more fantasy stuff.

Next time. No hard feelings.
And if you're feeling something hard, well, by all means, be my guest.

No, wait...

😀

 

[moonknight80200]

To put it simply, someone once said...

"Those who can, do. Those who can't become critics".

Or alternatively, they post their stuff anyway and are roundly criticized for it by the others who can't. lol

please, stop telling ppl they are "the very best artist that ever happened to grace the world with some utterly wonderful piece of art"...

Eh, I'll shout out whoever I want whenever I want, and despite your scary helmet, I doubt that you can stop me. 😉

Seriously though, you know your stuff is good too, helmet head. Don't be so insecure.

Folks,
A person who picks up a pencil and doodles some quasi stick figures does not deserve the same recognition as a person who spent years in school or self teaching to the point that they have mastered the fundamentals and created a style from those fundamentals. Again, it's a diservice to the true artist, when she is lumped in with the scribbler and doodler, who has not earned that distinction, but rather, has been given it.
webmaster joe

I agree a gazillion %. Thanks for verbalizing that. That pretty much sums up my feeling on the whole thing.

And for the record, notice that I've never posted anything negative about anybody's anything anywhere. If I don't like something, I simply ignore it. I'm arguing from a strictly hypothetical and academic viewpoint here, my points being

1. What I quoted from webmaster joe above

2. that those who are so inclined have a right to air their opinions and critiques in a public forum for better or for worse.

That sounds kind of grandiose for a coochie-coochie-coo forum, doesn't it? This ain't exactly the Athens of Pericles. I mostly hang around here to see hot chicks get tickled, not to debate stuff. I'm just gonna go back to what I've been doing until this thread...clicking on the postings of artists I like and not clicking on those I don't.

Adieu

 

[Kalamos]

Eh, I'll shout out whoever I want whenever I want, and despite your scary helmet, I doubt that you can stop me. 😉

Hey, whoever said my helmet was meant to be scary!?
It is mid XV century gothic style milanese made nasal-reinforced open-type sallet helm.

It was POSH back then!
You should have seen contemporary French or English armours... even German plate was crude by comparision to Milanese!

...

Besides, I've drawn myself without - as you can see in the aptly attached pic below - so it is not meant to scare ppl away, but to keep them from scaring ME!

😀

Seriously though, you know your stuff is good too, helmet head. Don't be so insecure.

No. I don't. I don't know just *how* good it is.
Sometimes I feel I should spend less time, less effort, less energies, because ppl call everything nice or wonderful, without any apparent rhyme or reason.

Maybe I should train myself to do without ppl's feedback.
But that would take a degree of maturity I don't really possess, yet.

...

And maybe, if I did possess it, I would stop asking for comments, stop posting pics, stop drawing altogether.

I would just know it all, and wouldn't feel the need for the "posting thrill".

...

Hey, it would be worse if I had a full ego, and weak drawing skills.
THAT would make a complete jerk out of me.

😀

 

[Boone]

I think details play a pivotal part in separating constructive criticism

Just like a wine taster may be able to pick up unique and very subtle hints of flavors and how they work together, or against each other, and describe a particular barrel by this, so too can a tickling art connoisseur have a sharp enough eye to be able to tell more about a particular piece than "I like/dislike it".

From subtle things like the wrinkles on feet or the effectiveness of a facial expression's, well, expression of feeling, I guess, to things I'm sure all of us can tell such as our preferences for body area tickling, gender of ler/lee etc...

so IMO a well thought out criticism is almost a compliment as it shows that, like or dislike, a hefty amount of attention was made upon the work

 

[laughinggaszone]

a well thought out criticism is almost a compliment as it shows that, like or dislike, a hefty amount of attention was made upon the work

You would think, but seeing as how some people have more time than god, they have a tendancy to spew trash in long winded tirades that never seem to end. Even "professional" critics seem to delight in tearing apart the object of their criticism. Almost as if they have been personally insulted and feel their merciless critique is some sort of payback for the less than stellar lunch, the 90 minutes of their life lost in some cinema or the $10 they spent on a fetish e-comic. Those kinds of criticisms are less for the benefit of the artist and more for the consumer, or rather, the consumer's revenge. I would not classify them as compliments as they are not intended as such and are largely the reactions of someone petty and vindictive.
webmaster joe

 

[Boone]

okay, good point, I guess I was thinking of constructive criticism as very detail-oriented rather than general... but negativity shines through no matter how you phrase it. I guess, if I was criticising something I would be very diplomatic about it and I will admit there are a few cack artists who just make me throw my hands up in the air and give up on trying to reply...

I will say this, though, it takes bravery to put your work out there for all the world to see and judge...

but as an artist in the performing field, I find that criticism from a trustworthy source(e.g my vocal trainer) can be a very positive experience while the general public's criticism is attention. I can tell if I have the audience, if they really like what I'm doing because generally I can whip them into a frenzy... not to sound too cocky(really depends on the presentation and material, I haven't seen a frenzied lacrymosa audience, admittedly)


in my opinion constructive criticism is ok, as long as it is truly constructive. I'm sory you've had such negative experiences with that art critic joe, I'm sure he masturbates to pictures of himself... some people derive pleasure from judging... rather the critics should be those that derive pleasure from nurturing(as one CAN nurture and constructively criticise, it just takes patience)

 

[Kalamos]

I think the whole issue is not with criticism itself.
The problem is with ppl worshipping some artists, while giving other guys the cold shoulder.

Reply/hit count and pic quality do not relate anymore.
That's the underlying issue.

And it's not something I'm making up.
A guy actually PMed me why the f*ck I let my own threads slip, after 4-5 replies or so.
What can I do - I said - being jealous is bad karma, plus I cannot routinely bump my own picture.
Gets pathetic after a while...

This is the whole prob.
It is not like I am insecure. Well, I am not *that* insecure anyway.
It is just like I cannot fathom why some threads have a greater success, while others won't, quality notwithstanding.

It is not like telling ppl they suck.
But it really irks me when I practically have to beg ppl to reply to my own threads.
I mean, it's free of charge! I'm getting more customers than replies!

It is not about being complimented, but bumping a thread is the only way for users to show appreciation.
And some users actually waste their time telling somebody they suck!

...

I keep repeating it, and it's growing old on myself...
The whole issue is not with cack-art.
The whole issue is with exposure.

 

[moonknight80200]

Hey, whoever said my helmet was meant to be scary!?
It is mid XV century gothic style milanese made nasal-reinforced open-type sallet helm.

Fair enough. Maybe it was the glowing red eyes that threw me off! 🙂

It's not as if you had this thing on

http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/Skull_Helm.JPG

As a "moonknight" I'd go for something like this myself

http://www.swordsandarmor.com/images/H1001_SpangenHelm.JPG

Besides, I've drawn myself without - as you can see in the aptly attached pic below -

And you just had to put the vino in your hand didn't you? lol

No. I don't. I don't know just *how* good it is...because ppl call everything nice or wonderful, without any apparent rhyme or reason.

Now you're sounding like Headsnap. 😉

But the thing is, you're right!

I think the whole issue is not with criticism itself.
The problem is with ppl worshipping some artists, while giving other guys the cold shoulder.

That's a legitimate issue insofar as it pertains to people with genuine talent like yourself. If you're getting the cold shoulder, after all of the obvious effort and attention to detail you put it, I can see where you'd be cheesed off. But as far as the scribblers and doodlers are concerned (to borrow a phrase from webmaster joe) why should I click on their thread and add to their viewcount if I know I'm only going to cringe in revulsion at what I see?

I don't usually comment on much of anything anyway, since I often don't have the time to write anything in detail (this has been a slow week, lol) and I don't want to be one more "awesome pic!" drive-by poster. I mean, look at my stats. Member since Jan '03 and still less than 200 posts. But for the record, since you seem to thrive on encouragement, I will say that more than one of your artworks has grabbed my attention. In particular, I enjoyed one of a Hobbit (or Halfling) who had her foot stuck in a gopher hole and was being tickled by the resident rodent. Bravo!

 

[The Bandito]

I think the whole issue is not with criticism itself.
The problem is with ppl worshipping some artists, while giving other guys the cold shoulder.

Reply/hit count and pic quality do not relate anymore.
That's the underlying issue.

I agree, dude. Well said.

I have felt discouraged at times as well. It's tough when you spend dozens of hours working on a pic, and you pour your heart into it - trying desperately to improve with each pencil stroke - and you get the same number of hits that every other post does.

And I have been guilty of the same thing, myself. I worshiped Ozzy for years, and he never even got one single reply from me on any of his threads.

I think your work is awesome Kalamos - but I have rarely taken the opportunity to tell you. And how would you know that, unless I take the time to tell you. It is so easy to criticize style... but sometimes its passion for the material that makes the pic a winner. Snail Shell is a great example - it is so obvious that he loves this genre, and it is communicated in his pics, and as a result, they are SUPER hot! Hotter than they might be if measured solely on artistic merit (although personally, I think his art style is pretty damn good, and always getting better).

I think that's kinda what Joe was saying. He considers my skill level on the bottom of the list, but digs the pics none the less. And he's right. I have a LOT of improving I need to do. But like you, I am very encouraged by posiitive feedback, and very discouraged by NOOOOOO feedback.

I guess what I would like is to see is more comments in general. And if that means that people priase "cack" so be it. If you like someone's work - let them know. But if you don't really love the pic, please don't feel like you need to give the artist posiitive feedback (even if it IS me, LMAO).

I'll tell ya what - Kalamos, let's make a pact. You fawn over my work, and bump my threads, and I'll do the same for you LOL. It'll be a giant tickle art love fest

Keep drawing guys and gals!

B

 

[grippedchimp]

I've been thinking that for a while, Kalamos. I've realised this for about a couple of years now. Ever realised that when a very popular member of the TMF who almost never visits the art forums posts very average art, and some just isn't tickling at all, their little clique comes around and posts on how fantastic it is while making a conversation in that thread, appearing that the art/thread is more important than it actually is. That really annoys me, given that the quality here is ignored by many brown-nosing peanuts who are only bigging up their friends. What's even worse is that certain "higher-ups" in the TMF are repeat offenders. This kind of thing makes not bother drawing here in the first place.