For those who support piracy of clips...please read

[tkmstr]

My suggestion to those who are really looking to stay w/it and fight back... I know some aren't for it, but private sales are a good way to ward off this problem and create accountability to those who do buy so they are far less likely to pull this. Unfortunately, since this also means higher costs, as others have said, some buyers may be turned off where they otherwise would have bought... and it sucks all around...

There is also a company that has offered to provide legal settlement options for those caught pirating the content and downloading it. I think it's a good offensive avenue to pursue since it is offered by a law firm and group with the expertise to help. I know the record companies used them some time ago and sure this may sound a bit extreme, but for those who wish to stay with it, to be frank, a strong response is warranted. /QUOTE]

I completely agree with you about going after those that download the pirated content. I used to be against that tactic but after buying some of your clips privately, I realized that the cost of added security is just passed on to the customer. I don't blame you for that, it is what it is, however the increased cost does cause me to have to decrease how often and how many clips I purchase; so it affects both sides of the business. By going after some of the freeloaders now, the rest of us will avoid fewer choices and higher costs in the future.

 

[tttony]

Again, you do...

Whats wrong with that? Last I checked everyone in the world does, and its normal, and doesnt hurt anybody. Except of course the 1 in a million who cant control themselves - which again, is a personal problem with their own mentality.

What you have been continually saying, is that it is a negative thing that scars peoples lives, and that just isnt the case for the overwhelming majority of people.


Your mentality, and desire to force your opinions upon people is FAR more damaging and offensive than any consensual fetish. In fact, I find you to be possibily the most offensive poster I have ever read on this forum, and I have felt that way from the first post of yours I read.

Ok, I think you get me wrong then. What I am saying is that getting aroused by watching tickling clips is the result of having a tickling fetish, can we agree on that? It is a deviation from the normally accepted sexuality, can we agree on that too?

As for the scarring, I think I have been clear enough by saying it is about minors who watch tickling clips. Do you think it's ok that a 13 yo boy or girl watches a tickling porn clip? Do you think it doesnt have any effect on them?

I am not forcing my opinion on anybody, I am only stating and expressing it. You may or may not agree with me. But maybe just reminding that tickling can be a sexually related fetish is offensive to you because you like to think it's all good and normally accepted by everyone. But try going on the street and tell people you get aroused by watching tickle torture clips and see what they think about it. It's no wonder people who have this fetish keep it very secretly from they families, friends, co-workers, because they know it would be seen as weird and they'd feel ashamed of it.

I think you should respect other people's opinions even if they are different from yours, and dont feel offended by them.

 

[tttony]

I'm not going to respond to all of your assumptions because the aren't worth the time. But I find your belief that tickle producers are making a lot of money off of clips to be laughable.

If we use your shot in the dark at sales, then the tickling industry as a whole makes $25,000 a month. There are 390 clips4sale tickling stores that have been updated within the last year, I'm not even going to count sites like tickletown, etc that operate outside of clips4sale. Since this is all hypothetical and I'm feeling generous, let's say that only 100 stores recieve any sales at all during a guven month. That nets each store $250 each month, before clips4sale takes their cut (I've heard that it may be as high as 30%), before paying models, before paying for equipment and possible hotel rentals, etc. That is hardly a kings ransom and losing $200 does not seem ridiculous.

Again, all of these numbers are pretty much made up but you did ask us to do the math. I just hate it when producers are painted as evil and money hungry. Most of them do it because they enjoy it and not for any steady cash flow.

Lastly, Laugh out Loud has never, as far as I can recall, had any nudity in his clips. If some poor unsuspecting 13 yr old was to happen upon one of his clips (not sure how that would happen anyways) and then decide to watch it (not sure why he or she would if they weren't looking for a tickle clip to begin with) how is the tickle producer to blame for "creating" a tickle fetish within that kid? Tickling occurs in daily life all around people and I find it hard to believe that watching a 5 minute clip of it would force someone to suddenly enjoy something they already wouldn't have.

We don't really know how much money they make, but if only 1000 people worldwide (which is quite realistic if not too little) buy a $10 clip that's $10,000 already. For one single clip. They make 2-3 clips a week.....if you have some time please do the math again for just a month worth of selling clips.

There's plenty of nudity on his clips, breasts, bottoms and vaginas fully exposed. Take a better look at them. The unsuspecting 13 yr all he needs to do is going to dailymotion to watch them. You seem not to recognize the difference between playful tickling that happens in daily life around people and the sexual fetish that can come with it, as in tickle torture, with bondage and with the goal of producing sexual arousing.

You are laughing at 13 yo kids who get their minds blown off and consequently can get a sexually related fetish by watching tickle torture clips.

 

[tku]

I am glad you posted this as it does illustrate the problem, clearly. Honestly, what incentive is there to continue to contribute good content when people pull this? No matter what business, if you can't yield a comfortable profit, there's really no incentive to keep up with it... so when we say piracy hurts everyone...ultimately...it's good people who enjoy varied tickle video content that will get the harm.

I can tell you from our standpoint, we have contacted the FBI and spoken with an agent and submitted as much supportive evidence as we could. Sure they shut down megaupload and it's a good step, but unless more is done, you will see more and more producers just stop out of disgust and frustration... not trying to be dramatic...just keeping it real.

My suggestion to those who are really looking to stay w/it and fight back... I know some aren't for it, but private sales are a good way to ward off this problem and create accountability to those who do buy so they are far less likely to pull this. Unfortunately, since this also means higher costs, as others have said, some buyers may be turned off where they otherwise would have bought... and it sucks all around...

There is also a company that has offered to provide legal settlement options for those caught pirating the content and downloading it. I think it's a good offensive avenue to pursue since it is offered by a law firm and group with the expertise to help. I know the record companies used them some time ago and sure this may sound a bit extreme, but for those who wish to stay with it, to be frank, a strong response is warranted.

This is just my opinion...some will agree, others not...but it just bothers me to see a good producer like UK and others get screwed over by cheap, selfish, self-entitled a$$holes who feel like the world owes them something...

Opinions on emotive issues are rarely helpful when perfectly good facts are available, so I will try to be as factual as possible. If you want to stop any kind of piracy, going around threatening people in order to gain legal settlements (which is at the heart of the legal practise you are describing) doesn't work. Aside from it being a sleazy practise that relies on it being more expensive to hire a lawyer and go through the legal process than to pay settlement demands, even with the best entertainment lawyers on the planet fighting your corner, it's proven to lose you massive amounts of money and have zero net effect on stopping pirates, or increasing the amount of money you can make from your product online.

Unsuprisingly, the only people that truly benefit from this kind of "aggressive" legal action are the lawyers. There's a reason why only the corporate side of the entertainment industry has followed this path and that's because they have money to burn and can soak up the losses. More importantly, they can afford the potential counter-suits which would be an absolute train wreck for an average joe (financially speaking 😀) like you or I. Of course, specialist media lawyers are going to whisper sweet nothings in your ear and offer you options to fight your corner (thats how they pay their bills after all) but I can't see one good reason why an indie developer or media producer would ever seriously consider this route. The highly respected EFF compiled a great article on the subject a few years ago - section VII is particularly illuminating if you can't muster the enthusiasm to read the whole thing.

Putting all that aside though, the single most important step you guys can take if you want to improve the rewards for doing business is to make your infrastructure better. The root of the problem for producers here, ie. mass chargebacks allowing fraudulent individuals to get hold of your entire backcatalogues for free, can only be solved by upgrading to a platform that protects against that. It's entirely up to you guys to do that, nobody will do it for you.

You fix a hole by plugging it, not by furiously threatening legal recourse toward people who live on the other side of the planet (and are just going to laugh at you while you feed money to American lawyers who have no legal power to do anything in that person's country). It's a big reason app developers want to sell their goods over the Apple store, or Google Play, or game developers want their game on Steam - aside from the massive exposure those platforms give them, they are quick and easy to use for customers and most importantly secure and reliable.

Sure, I can imagine charging $3 a minute and private sales being a decent option if you really can't stand seeing your work pirated and you want to control who is buying your material with the hope of making them more accountable - that's totally up to you guys as content creators. For me personally, from a business standpoint, I can't see that method making you more money than benefitting from the exposure, reasonable pricing and ease of use a platform like clips4sale (however imperfect it may be) provides you.

In short - it's difficult, but there's no point destroying yourselves and your businesses by getting too emotionally attached to these issues. Moral crusades and business don't go well together. I can't help but feel a more secure sales platform and working on making the best clips you can are always going to affect your bottom line a great deal more than groups of people who are unlikely to pay for anything regardless. I think it was Tommy who said earlier something along the lines of there being an inevitable amount of losses in all business, and you have to learn to accept that or just not be in business - and whilst I certainly don't want to see good producers pack up shop, I think it's hard to argue against that.

 

[rhiannon]

Do you think it's ok that a 13 yo boy or girl watches a tickling porn clip?

No. It's not okay, it's not legal. It's also not legal for a 13 yo boy or girl to drink or smoke. But it's not the responsibility of the tobacco- or alcohol industry to keep that from happening, it's the responsibility of the parents. 13 year olds shouldn't be on the internet without monitoring - period. If they are able to do so, the parents are doing something wrong!

because you like to think it's all good and normally accepted by everyone

We all know it's not "normal" and not accepted by everyone. But who cares?

But try going on the street and tell people you get aroused by watching tickle torture clips and see what they think about it.

Seriously...if someone I meet on the street blurted out to me that he loves to fuck his girlfriend in missionary position, I would wonder if they were out of their mind! You don't tell random people what you get aroused by! It's none of their business!

It's no wonder people who have this fetish keep it very secretly from they families, friends, co-workers

Why in the world would anybody share their sexual preferences, whatever they may be, with my families, friends (btw., my closest friends know of my tickling fetish and don't care whatsoever) or, for God's sake, co-workers? You have a really, really weird perception of sexuality!

 

[Comfort Eagle]

It's no wonder people who have this fetish keep it very secretly from they families, friends, co-workers

I don't.

 

[tttony]

I don't.

You may not, but I am sure most people with a tickling fetish do. Two men at work may be telling each other they like bj's, or even anal sex without any problem, thus revealing a normally accepted sexual preference, but they would never tell the other they are into tickle torture because that is considered weird and they are afraid they would be labelled as perverts.

 

[Comfort Eagle]

I think you (well, most tickle fetishists, really) severely underestimate how hot most people find making someone wiggle and giggle.

 

[TMF Jeff]

We don't really know how much money they make, but if only 1000 people worldwide (which is quite realistic if not too little) buy a $10 clip that's $10,000 already. For one single clip. They make 2-3 clips a week.....if you have some time please do the math again for just a month worth of selling clips.

You're way, way, waaaaaay off. A really successful clip will sell in the range of 50-100 copies out of the gate, then maybe that number again over the lifetime of its sales.

 

[tkmstr]

We don't really know how much money they make, but if only 1000 people worldwide (which is quite realistic if not too little) buy a $10 clip that's $10,000 already. For one single clip. They make 2-3 clips a week.....if you have some time please do the math again for just a month worth of selling clips.

There's plenty of nudity on his clips, breasts, bottoms and vaginas fully exposed. Take a better look at them. The unsuspecting 13 yr all he needs to do is going to dailymotion to watch them. You seem not to recognize the difference between playful tickling that happens in daily life around people and the sexual fetish that can come with it, as in tickle torture, with bondage and with the goal of producing sexual arousing.

You are laughing at 13 yo kids who get their minds blown off and consequently can get a sexually related fetish by watching tickle torture clips.

LOL well know you have completed changed your assumed numbers. You just as easily could have saidthat a producer makes $100,000 per clip and does that consistently two to three times a week. Let's say that you are correct and each clip makes $10,000 and that clips4sale makes 30% of each sale. Given that tickling isn't even the most popular fetish on their site and they have thousands of stores, they would average about 360 million dollars a month in sales. Sounds a little far fetched, wouldn't you agree?

The fact of the matter is that we both have no idea how much a producer makes, or loses, on an individual clip. When you assert that they are getting wealthy, that is a complete guess with no facts or figures to back it up.

I do laugh at the idea of a 13 yr old getting his "mind blown" from watching a tickle clip. As a 13 yr old, if I saw a spanking or hardcore bondage clip I would not watch the entire thing because I had no interest in it. You act like a producer is holding a gun to a kid's head and forcing them to watch. By the age of 13 I was also well aware of my tickling fetish and it had nothing to do with watching clips since I had not even seen one by then. I think that the majority of people, if not all, have a fetish before they come into contact with any produced material.

Anyways, this is beginning to take up too much time and we aren't going to change either of our opinions. Most of this is all hypothetical guessing and has gotten way off of topic from turtleboy's original post on piracy so I will bow out at this point. I hope someone gives you a hug or a shoulder to cry on Tony, I have a feeling that you need it.

 

[The Last Laugh]

Let's say that you are correct and each clip makes $10,000 and that clips4sale makes 30% of each sale.

Clips4Sale actually takes 40%.

 

[tttony]

LOL well know you have completed changed your assumed numbers. You just as easily could have saidthat a producer makes $100,000 per clip and does that consistently two to three times a week. Let's say that you are correct and each clip makes $10,000 and that clips4sale makes 30% of each sale. Given that tickling isn't even the most popular fetish on their site and they have thousands of stores, they would average about 360 million dollars a month in sales. Sounds a little far fetched, wouldn't you agree?

The fact of the matter is that we both have no idea how much a producer makes, or loses, on an individual clip. When you assert that they are getting wealthy, that is a complete guess with no facts or figures to back it up.

I do laugh at the idea of a 13 yr old getting his "mind blown" from watching a tickle clip. As a 13 yr old, if I saw a spanking or hardcore bondage clip I would not watch the entire thing because I had no interest in it. You act like a producer is holding a gun to a kid's head and forcing them to watch. By the age of 13 I was also well aware of my tickling fetish and it had nothing to do with watching clips since I had not even seen one by then. I think that the majority of people, if not all, have a fetish before they come into contact with any produced material.

Anyways, this is beginning to take up too much time and we aren't going to change either of our opinions. Most of this is all hypothetical guessing and has gotten way off of topic from turtleboy's original post on piracy so I will bow out at this point. I hope someone gives you a hug or a shoulder to cry on Tony, I have a feeling that you need it.

As you said, and as I did too, we both dont know how much money they make. I was just trying to figure it out.

The 13 yo who already has a tickling fetish will only feed it and make it bigger by watching a tickle torture clip causing more psychological distress and forming an addiction to it, agreed?

At age 51 I don't really need a hug or a shoulder anymore 🙂 I got it all pretty much figured it out for myself 🙂 but thanks anyway 🙂

 

[tttony]

You're way, way, waaaaaay off. A really successful clip will sell in the range of 50-100 copies out of the gate, then maybe that number again over the lifetime of its sales.

Ok, so 75x$10x10clips a month? that's $7,500X12=$90,000 a year....not bad that's what a top Manager in a big company makes😉

 

[Darth Sidious]

Tku brings up.a.very valid point.in terms.of.infrastrucure - we are already hot on that. I know a small degree of piracy is i.eviteable, but the key is to make it as.unattractive as possible and.create a sense.of.accountability so that people who would no sonner rip you off will go.elsewhere. How each does that is totally up to them, of.course.

Btw tku, I have not forgotten about your survey 🙂. I will be responding to more of them today!

As for this tttony guy, I agree with the rest, hes got a totally misconceived notion all.around, so let him think what he wants. Its pretty clear from the other posts hes way off base. I agree with Jeff.

 

[TMF Jeff]

Ok, so 75x$10x10clips a month? that's $7,500X12=$90,000 a year....not bad that's what a top Manager in a big company makes😉

That 90 grand is what the company would be making, not what the guy running it would make. You have to figure in the costs of equipment and models, plus the abstract costs of production like feeding models, and providing the occasional partylike atmosphere. Plus the cost of acquisition for a model. If a company makes 90 grand a year, I would expect the guy running it to be making in the 35-50 range. Which I'll agree is not bad, but that is a very successful company making 10 well-selling clips a month. I don't think most tickling producers are actually hitting ten popular clips a month.

 

[tttony]

That 90 grand is what the company would be making, not what the guy running it would make. You have to figure in the costs of equipment and models, plus the abstract costs of production like feeding models, and providing the occasional partylike atmosphere. Plus the cost of acquisition for a model. If a company makes 90 grand a year, I would expect the guy running it to be making in the 35-50 range. Which I'll agree is not bad, but that is a very successful company making 10 well-selling clips a month. I don't think most tickling producers are actually hitting ten popular clips a month.

Well, 35-50 grand in your pocket a year is not bad at all, that's more of what a lot of people make with a 40 hours a week job. Don't you think complaining for a loss of $200 a month is kind of ridiculous in this case? I mean I agree piracy is not right, especially if stolen cards are used (which I didn't know before this thread started), but the loss sounds minimal to me, considering the kind of business.

 

[tttony]

Tku brings up.a.very valid point.in terms.of.infrastrucure - we are already hot on that. I know a small degree of piracy is i.eviteable, but the key is to make it as.unattractive as possible and.create a sense.of.accountability so that people who would no sonner rip you off will go.elsewhere. How each does that is totally up to them, of.course.

Btw tku, I have not forgotten about your survey 🙂. I will be responding to more of them today!

As for this tttony guy, I agree with the rest, hes got a totally misconceived notion all.around, so let him think what he wants. Its pretty clear from the other posts hes way off base. I agree with Jeff.

Well, thank you for letting me think what I want 🙂

 

[tku]

Tku brings up.a.very valid point.in terms.of.infrastrucure - we are already hot on that. I know a small degree of piracy is i.eviteable, but the key is to make it as.unattractive as possible and.create a sense.of.accountability so that people who would no sonner rip you off will go.elsewhere. How each does that is totally up to them, of.course.

Btw tku, I have not forgotten about your survey 🙂. I will be responding to more of them today!

...

Yep, hope the site development is going well and all the survey responses are helping you make those important design decisions 🙂

I can understand your line of thinking in trying to create a sense of accountability and all that, but unfortunately there's no evidence that hammering downloaders with legal threats does that at all. Most importantly it doesn't affect the rate of flow of pirated goods into the "black market", so it doesn't help your business or the overall situation. 99.9% of pirates can't rip a dvd - let alone hack credit card databases, run torrent hubs etc. - and it seems utterly pointless and a huge waste of time and effort harrassing a few downloaders (and you only stand a chance of collaring the ones who aren't tech savvy ie. not the ones causing the problems) in the name of some strange sense of justice, especially since it only needs to blow up in your face one time and you could end up losing a hell of a lot of money in legal fees. In an ideal world the internet would run on the fuel of moral business; everything would be fairly priced and everybody would respect each other ...but it just doesn't work like that. Never let greedy lawyers convince you of things that there is no proof for.

Ultimately, you don't kill a tree by hacking wildly at the branches ..you hit the problem at the root. Stop the guys getting your work for free with mass chargebacks and everything else falls into place. International law is not effective at doing this at in the slightest, so secure card registration systems and web infrastructure are key. The right tool for the right job. Aside from this you just have to make the best clips you can and focus on making your business as good as it can be given the circumstances. It's the same for making tickle clips, making music, or even brick and mortar businesses - there are things you can control and things you cannot. I think accepting that is not defeat, but moving away from fantasy and towards maximising the actual potential of a business venture - which is surely what everybody is looking for in the first place, whatever they do.

 

[Jagermeistered]

Ok, so 75x$10x10clips a month? that's $7,500X12=$90,000 a year....not bad that's what a top Manager in a big company makes😉

You are trying to equate overhead(gross-profit), with net-profit...
You have talent(models), equipment/technology; what about space? Your rationale of business empiricism, is quite misleading.

 

[Jagermeistered]

Well, 35-50 grand in your pocket a year is not bad at all, that's more of what a lot of people make with a 40 hours a week job. Don't you think complaining for a loss of $200 a month is kind of ridiculous in this case? I mean I agree piracy is not right, especially if stolen cards are used (which I didn't know before this thread started), but the loss sounds minimal to me, considering the kind of business.

A loss in gross-profit, means that fewer clips will be produced, in the future. So, if the model is supporting a family; it is a loss of income to the family! Do you enjoy starving families? Is that a fetish?

 

[turtleboy]

Well, 35-50 grand in your pocket a year is not bad at all, that's more of what a lot of people make with a 40 hours a week job. Don't you think complaining for a loss of $200 a month is kind of ridiculous in this case? I mean I agree piracy is not right, especially if stolen cards are used (which I didn't know before this thread started), but the loss sounds minimal to me, considering the kind of business.

I wasn't going to bother responding to any of your comments since most of them are simply an opportunity to express opinions which you have already ranted about at length in another thread, and which have little to do with the subject of the thread. Since you insist on speculating wildly and inaccurately about the amount of money producers actually make however, I will set you straight on a couple of details. Firstly, I was not complaining about a loss of $200 per month. I have no idea what if anything the actual cost of piracy is to myself or other producers since we cannot measure this. I do not feel it is useful to pick estimated figures out of the sky and then come out with a total amount as you have been doing, but as others have said, it is likely that all the main producers have lost some potential customers and sales due to some people being granted access to all our releases for free.

My complaint in that example was about having $200 of sales taken back in one night, which does affect my earnings for that month, particularly when it happens again a week or so later and when it happens via my members site also. The amount producers make will vary greatly from store to store but I can safely say most producers are not making $90,000 a year and taking home $35-50,000. I have had top selling clips and my store has been in the top 5 for much of the last year or so and I don't make anywhere close to that amount. My overheads in terms of modelling fees and travel expenses, studio lease etc account for a large majority of my earnings. If I were to try and live solely off the net earnings (profits) from my clips, I would barely be able to cover my mortgage and put food on the table - it is not a company director's salary. I actually work approx 25-30 hours a week in another job and then put upwards of 30 hours per week into producing, distributing and releasing content for my sites - when I say I work hard at this I mean I work hard, often working on clips until late at night and then going to work at another job in the morning.

This is why we get pissed off that content is taken for granted, ripped and distributed freely to as many people as possible (including those 13 year olds that are of such concern to you) by someone who labels producers 'greedy' and portrays himself as a nice guy. With the low margins and high cost of hiring models, a loss of several hundred dollars at a time does affect what I can do, without considering any potential losses from the large scale piracy. It all happens as a result of fraud, on a scale of hundreds if not thousands of dollars per month - that is an actual crime in the legal sense, unlike clip production itself, which is a crime only within your own imagination.

 

[Jagermeistered]

Ok, I think you get me wrong then. What I am saying is that getting aroused by watching tickling clips is the result of having a tickling fetish, can we agree on that? It is a deviation from the normally accepted sexuality, can we agree on that too?

As for the scarring, I think I have been clear enough by saying it is about minors who watch tickling clips. Do you think it's ok that a 13 yo boy or girl watches a tickling porn clip? Do you think it doesnt have any effect on them?

I am not forcing my opinion on anybody, I am only stating and expressing it. You may or may not agree with me. But maybe just reminding that tickling can be a sexually related fetish is offensive to you because you like to think it's all good and normally accepted by everyone. But try going on the street and tell people you get aroused by watching tickle torture clips and see what they think about it. It's no wonder people who have this fetish keep it very secretly from they families, friends, co-workers, because they know it would be seen as weird and they'd feel ashamed of it.

I think you should respect other people's opinions even if they are different from yours, and dont feel offended by them.

Is it okay for 13 year old boys to watch professional wrestling, or mix martial arts fighting? What if they end up with a homosexual fetish for men's asses or testicles? Or, they like rotten.com, and gain a death fetish? Your 13 year old boy argument, is non-sensical...

What if the 13 year old boy commits suicide by age 17? Because the parent(s), were huge protectionists?

 

[The Last Laugh]

Well, 35-50 grand in your pocket a year is not bad at all, that's more of what a lot of people make with a 40 hours a week job. Don't you think complaining for a loss of $200 a month is kind of ridiculous in this case?

Most producers don't make anywhere near 35-50 grand a year. That's the exception. One can't assume the biggest, most popular producers are typical examples of producers in general.

Take me, for instance. I'm definitely not one of the big players in this market, but I don't think I'm one of the worst off either (at least I hope not). Well, for the last several months I've made an average of about $800 in sales per month. Not too bad, I guess. Unfortunately, a typical 2-model shoot (which I've been doing about once a month in recent times) usually costs me $300 to $400 in model salary expenses alone. And let's not even talk about all the time and effort that goes into finding models, planning and doing shoots, editing the footage, producing picture and clip samples, writing descriptions, uploading to C4S or whatever, posting on tickling forums, etc. So a loss of $200 a month is actually a HUGE deal.

Another thing I should point out is that a fairly large percentage of my monthly sales are of older clips. I'm not especially prolific, but I've been doing this for the last 10 years and I've managed to build a fairly substantial back catalog. Sales for more recent videos aren't very impressive, most of them barely covering their production costs, if even that in some cases. If it weren't for my back catalog I would have closed shop a long time ago because total sales would be way too low to justify doing more shoots. I expect things are pretty tough for many producers who haven't been in the business for very long and haven't had a chance to accumulate hundreds of clips for customers to choose from. So, if my situation isn't nearly as great as some people seem to think it is, imagine how bad is it for many of the other producers, and how damaging being cheated out of $200 a month would be for them.

 

[Jagermeistered]

which is a crime only within your own imagination.

I concur... 🙂

 

[tttony]

A loss in gross-profit, means that fewer clips will be produced, in the future. So, if the model is supporting a family; it is a loss of income to the family! Do you enjoy starving families? Is that a fetish?

I think you drank way too much jagermeister lol....just kidding. A model can find another job, maybe a more decent one too or is modeling in tickling clips the only thing she can do?