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partial birth abortions
- Thread starter the_Baron
- Start date
I merely presented an opposing point of view in the interest of debate and discussion. Twas you that have been on the attack.
(and oddjob wasnt even responding to one of your posts🙄 )
Ven (long time member before ever becoming a mod)
http://www.abortionfacts.com/survivors/survivors.asp
(and oddjob wasnt even responding to one of your posts🙄 )
Ven (long time member before ever becoming a mod)
http://www.abortionfacts.com/survivors/survivors.asp
Posting links to back one's pov does not constitute an attack. Backing up one's pov with substance rather than name calling yelling and finally just plain resorting to the f word shows your arguments dont hold water.....(of any kind)
😉
😉
I backed out of this thread and stopped posting because I did not feel like being attacked further for my own PERSONAL beliefs. No one is right in this thread. No one is wrong either. You can not be right or wrong in opinion. It's just that...opinion. Your own personal viewpoint.
Venray did NOT attack you jez, or anyone else for that matter. You, on the other hand, have taken it upon yourself to personally attack every single person who has participated in this thread who is, BY PERSONAL CHOICE, pro-life. That needs to stop now if you wish to keep your access to this subforum.
This is a hot topic for debate. It always is, in the numerous times it's been debated. But that doesn't mean everyone can not act like adults (since we all are), and debate the matter maturely, with facts and personal experiences to support our own views. BUT, if you want your own views respected, you need to respect the views of others. Simple as that.
Mimi
Venray did NOT attack you jez, or anyone else for that matter. You, on the other hand, have taken it upon yourself to personally attack every single person who has participated in this thread who is, BY PERSONAL CHOICE, pro-life. That needs to stop now if you wish to keep your access to this subforum.
This is a hot topic for debate. It always is, in the numerous times it's been debated. But that doesn't mean everyone can not act like adults (since we all are), and debate the matter maturely, with facts and personal experiences to support our own views. BUT, if you want your own views respected, you need to respect the views of others. Simple as that.
Mimi
D
Deleted member 2452
Guest
birth control pills are not the answer
sex ed is a great idea, condoms are a must, and combined with a spirmaside will insure a safe sexual experience.
the willy nilly throwing of birth control pills at teen age girls will only cause more health problems, and an increase in s.t.d.'s.
ice i'll have to go back to the death penalty thread cause i'm positive you said you were against it. besides here you are calling for a bunch of people to die, for nothing other than being politically different than you. seig heil!
knox, "legislating from the bench" is against the constitution. if these guys want to make laws, then they should have run for elected office. and in this case, the support for the law against p.b.a. was from both liberals, and conservatives. there goes your misimpressions about the political angle on this topic!
steve
sex ed is a great idea, condoms are a must, and combined with a spirmaside will insure a safe sexual experience.
the willy nilly throwing of birth control pills at teen age girls will only cause more health problems, and an increase in s.t.d.'s.
ice i'll have to go back to the death penalty thread cause i'm positive you said you were against it. besides here you are calling for a bunch of people to die, for nothing other than being politically different than you. seig heil!
knox, "legislating from the bench" is against the constitution. if these guys want to make laws, then they should have run for elected office. and in this case, the support for the law against p.b.a. was from both liberals, and conservatives. there goes your misimpressions about the political angle on this topic!
steve
D
Deleted member 2452
Guest
to ven, and mimi
why are you tollerating all the garbage spuing forth from jez?
i can think of several occassions where other members have been sensored for a heck of a lot less than this murderous minded little girl has done!
i am making an official protest, i want her insulting posts deleted, and her sensored! if it means closing this thread, fine! so be it!
even others(that hate me) like shinning ice, and knox have been behaving with more restraint, and a modicum of respect.
this can't be let go, she is way off base.
steve
why are you tollerating all the garbage spuing forth from jez?
i can think of several occassions where other members have been sensored for a heck of a lot less than this murderous minded little girl has done!
i am making an official protest, i want her insulting posts deleted, and her sensored! if it means closing this thread, fine! so be it!
even others(that hate me) like shinning ice, and knox have been behaving with more restraint, and a modicum of respect.
this can't be let go, she is way off base.
steve
When she directs comments directly at me, Steve..I leave them for all to see that she is not listening to anyone....They dont bother me in the least as our pms back and forth should prove. If I deleted all of the stupid comments, yours would fall with hers..the seig heil/nazi stuff is ridiculous and I expect better from you who would be morally offended and outraged if same were said about yourself...so where do I begin deleting...do I start with all the cuss words...I think not..I will let this thread stand unless the higher powers want it removed....It serves a useful purpose in my opinion....
If you find it overly offensive in some way, then stop adding fuel to the flames.
Ray
If you find it overly offensive in some way, then stop adding fuel to the flames.
Ray
giggleBaron said:
As many people know from the previous thread, I am pro-choice and anti-Christianity, but I am thoroughly horrified at the thought of the practice you describe. When I first read the term "partial birth abortion" I thought it was referring to the sort of thing that is done in many IVF cases, where about seven foetuses are impregnated into the womb and the parents can only cope with 1,2 or 3 and so have the rest removed.
I think carrying out an abortion past the point where the baby's body and nervous system is developed enough to experience emotions, thoughts and physical sensations is a deeply disturbing practice. If someone takes that long to face up to such an important decision, then I think the damn least they can do is to go through with the gestation and then give the child up for adoption.
Scraping a non-sentient ball of cells only a few weeks old out of a womb is one thing, but what you describe sounds incontrovertably to me, like the wilful destruction of an actual human being.
omega said:
The moment at which you can say a human life is physically or spiritually present is a matter of conjecture. While I'm obviously an pro-choice person (But saying that I'm also pro-responsibility even more!) I think there is a clinical difference between a ball of cells without structure outside of it's DNA or a nervous system, and a baby. I think by the time it's moved beyond embryo status into the realms of foetus-hood, you can say that it's a person. Before that, only potentially so. There is a particularly rabid segment of the pro-life community that says the morning after pill is evil because one of the ways it works is to irritate the lining of the womb to prevent an embryo attaching. That in my opinion, is too extreme.
The biggest thing in this debate, is responsibility. I try to be as responsible about sex as I can. I've had it whilst drunk and whilst sober, but I/we always use two forms of contraception in case one of them fails for some reason. Possibly that's overkill, but I don't think with human life you can take safety and responsibility too carefully.
Ticklemmmeeeeee said:
Don't confuse a small, vulnerable baby with the soul it's body contains. That soul might be very old and wise and chose to incarnate only very briefly in this world just to teach irresponsible adults a lesson about responsibility.
That was a lovely post TM, I really enjoyed reading it.
Re: i do happen to know a little about this issue
Eeeeeewwww!
I don't doubt your word Steve, because I know you have personal and professional experience in this.
All I can say is that someone carrying out a PBA at such a stage in pregnancy (where medical intervention is not the case) must be very cold-hearted. That sounds truly horrible.
areenactor said:
Eeeeeewwww!
I don't doubt your word Steve, because I know you have personal and professional experience in this.
All I can say is that someone carrying out a PBA at such a stage in pregnancy (where medical intervention is not the case) must be very cold-hearted. That sounds truly horrible.
sugarmouse said:i agree tickled to death..studyin sociology iv seen so many unwanted kids...born to people who really dont care a damn about them, ending up in care...it makes me really sad.
i dnt think there should b anyone able to dictate whether a woman can have an abortion or not, becoming a parent isnt something that should be taken lightly.
i had an experience where my boyfriend purposely removed the condom half way thru sex, when he was sure i wouldnt notice, resulting in me getttin pregnant, for the reason he did not want me to leave him to go to university.
he had no job, we had no money and i was due to start university in 2months time...i did not want a baby in the slightest and had an abortion doen privately within the first 8weeks. i dont regret it at all however i had the fairly new 'abortion pill' and i did not know at the time that women in america have died from takin it....
as a consequence of taking it i have a ruptured womb and may not b able to have children at all now..my body reacted badly to the medication....also although i had private treatment,,,i have been advised to take action for medical negligence due to the way i was treated throughout. this experience makes me feel scared when i hear abotu how many (especially younger )women seem to regard abortion as a form of emergency contraception
That's a very sad story SM, I'm glad you came through it. I couldn't advise you hard enough to take that advice and take legal action.
I think a termination was justified in that case. Your pregnancy was a result of his deceit and not your irresponsibility. You also faced up to the decision early enough to not cause suffering to an unborn child with a developed nervous system.
Re: Scenario Reversal
I do agree with that Ed, but I also think the mother has a responsibility to the child's life once a certain stage of the pregnancy is reached. I'd say she has the right to not continue developing an embryo to foetus stage, but if she hasn't faced up to it by the time it's become an embryo capable of reacting physically and emotionally to stimuli (When did you say that was Steve? Was it at about 11 weeks?), then the child's life needs protecting as well as the mother's choice.
I think the pro-choice should only apply while it's only the feelings of the mother that are at stake. Past the "point of no return" it's more than one person.
TickledToDeath said:
I do agree with that Ed, but I also think the mother has a responsibility to the child's life once a certain stage of the pregnancy is reached. I'd say she has the right to not continue developing an embryo to foetus stage, but if she hasn't faced up to it by the time it's become an embryo capable of reacting physically and emotionally to stimuli (When did you say that was Steve? Was it at about 11 weeks?), then the child's life needs protecting as well as the mother's choice.
I think the pro-choice should only apply while it's only the feelings of the mother that are at stake. Past the "point of no return" it's more than one person.
Bet you'd never have thought that I would call you the voice of reason, mate, but you have summed it all up admirably...
Though we may disagree on when a baby is a baby or whether or not potential humanity is reason enough to give it a chance, we DO agree that responsibility is key. Responsibility does not fall on the woman's shoulders alone...it falls on both people choosing to have sexual relations and it also falls on us as a society to provide care and homes for those who choose not to have the child for whatever reason.
Medical care, child care, or homes for these unwanted children should be provided by us with all the tax dollars we choose to spend on death machines and the taking of human life across the planet. Many of us would gladly volunteer to help in any way posssible.
Ray
Though we may disagree on when a baby is a baby or whether or not potential humanity is reason enough to give it a chance, we DO agree that responsibility is key. Responsibility does not fall on the woman's shoulders alone...it falls on both people choosing to have sexual relations and it also falls on us as a society to provide care and homes for those who choose not to have the child for whatever reason.
Medical care, child care, or homes for these unwanted children should be provided by us with all the tax dollars we choose to spend on death machines and the taking of human life across the planet. Many of us would gladly volunteer to help in any way posssible.
Ray
TickledToDeath said:
Interesting situation and one that falls into the 50-50 category for me. I would defend the right of the parents to terminate if they felt that they could not cope with the situation (or use adoption of course) but people with myriad disabilities have lived full lives despite them. Paralysis, illness, physical and mental disability... Whatever they are, they're a challenge to the person and those closest to them. Coming from the spiritual perspective that I do, I think such hinderances in life are sometimes necessary for people to evolve, because of the lessons they can learn from combatting them. So if you're a parent in such a situation and can't stand the thought of having a child with said disability, I'd support your right to choice, given the conditions I believe in about the term length. I would however, not agree with it as the afflicted child could still live a life if not totally full, still fulFILLING.
Re: i have to vent
Ta very much. I already knew I was. 😉
Good point. Easy to pontificate when one isn't afflicted personally by the situation. I pray I never am.
Beats the shit out of me.
Always your choice. 🙂 I hope it will always be legally enshrined to be so.
I'd partially disagree there. I would say that embryos aren't people. By the time the foetus stage has been reached an un-born child can respond to stimuli and has developed a central nervous system that can experience physical pain.
Agreed. I think most people agree that that is the case.
jez said:
Ta very much. I already knew I was. 😉
jez said:
Good point. Easy to pontificate when one isn't afflicted personally by the situation. I pray I never am.
jez said:
Beats the shit out of me.
jez said:
Always your choice. 🙂 I hope it will always be legally enshrined to be so.
jez said:
I'd partially disagree there. I would say that embryos aren't people. By the time the foetus stage has been reached an un-born child can respond to stimuli and has developed a central nervous system that can experience physical pain.
jez said:
Agreed. I think most people agree that that is the case.
jez said:
Pardon me for butting in Jez, but I don't think sushi meant anything like that.
He was talking about the abortion of a foetus at a very advanced stage of pregnancy, not the termination of a cluster of cells just a few weeks old.
Mimi said:
*truncated for brevity's sake*
I think you mentioned this experience on Hal's thread too Meems. All I can say is that my admiration for you has grown ten-fold.
I think what your friend did was deeply immoral (no offence meant) and I have to agree with you wholeheartedly.
Such an opinion is of great merit in a discussion like this, because like Steve's, it's based on hard experience and what you've seen with your own eyes.
asutickler said:I REALLY wish that guys had the luxury of chemical birth control. Accidentally fathering a child actually frightens me MORE than catching HIV or some other lethal disease... But should it happen, I'd do ANYTHING to keep the child alive, rather than having it aborted behind my back or something. The very IDEA makes me shudder...
I'm glad someone else has given voice to that, because I feel exactly the same way! Knowing how bad I am at managing my own life, I'm terrified at the thought of how I'd managing being a father to someone else.
Re: oddjob it happens more than twice a year!
That is quite possibly the most distressing post in this thread yet. I am disgusted that any person who has the gall to call themself "human" could behave in such a way. Shame they didn't abort the mother and keep the baby.
areenactor said:
That is quite possibly the most distressing post in this thread yet. I am disgusted that any person who has the gall to call themself "human" could behave in such a way. Shame they didn't abort the mother and keep the baby.
