Originally posted by His Myr-ness
No offense taken. I don’t mind being invoked. But when it’s done, mileage may very, packed by weight not volume, and the result may not be as planned.... 🙂
Ummm, typo in there somewhere? I get the general gist, which appears to be along the lines of "You'll eat shit if you try to psycho-analyse ME, you limey fuck!", so we can progress from here.
😀 (I bet none of you knew that Myr was part-Texan, eh?)
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Possibly would have been the better word choice.
Hmm, yeah.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Given your clarification there is no argument about the base point you made then. But the idea of Nanotech was pretty well presented and expanded upon by Drexler in the early 90’s, and the Foresight foundation he founded that continues the exploration of the sciences development and progress. Drexler created the foundation because he saw the risks inherent in the technology and wanted to get proactive thinking going about it’s potential and how it can best be handled. They have deeply thought of the potentials, and are working to be sure they do not happen.
No chance in hell that won't happen. I don't seek to demonise technology in any way. Advancement is natural and constantly progressive. The only thing I am against is the mis-use of it. Given the track record of the mind-bendingly psychopathic lunatics at the top of politics, I rather fear that nanotech is going to be misappropriated when it comes of age. Call it a gut feeling.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
The Military sees applications in every technology that comes along. It’s part of the job. Almost anything can be made into a weapon. Give what Nanotech could do, they would be very interested.
Agreed.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Regarding implanted chips, While the precursor came from Military technology (In the form of GPS satellite location) the current cutting edge of it is in the commercial sector.
LOJACK came first a chip system that could be placed on a car that would allow for easy trace and recovery should it be stolen. It worked quite well, and it led some people to figure that chipping their kids might be a good idea should they ever be kidnapped they could be found. While it was never done due to power concerns it was an idea.
Pet chips became very common recently in the US. It’s a passive data chip that is implanted in the animal. Should the pet be found a reader can recover the information and animal and owner can be reunited. It’s SOP in many shelters now before pets are adopted out.
Kids being kept safe from those "predators". A big issue of mine that I touched on in one of the other threads. I'm sure the publicity campaigns that try to sell the personal micro-chip will be big on the imagary of murdered children and imprisoned paedophiles. Nothing like hitting people in their biggest fear-zone to get them to accept something. The European Common Market was a bit like that in the early 50's.
"Don't worry it's only a free trade zone. Nothing to worry about with any nasty politics. No member country will lose any of it's independant sovreignty, that's completely out of the question. Oh by the way, if we don't join, you'll all starve!" 50 years later and we have an increasingly dictatorial European Union, whose authority overshadows any tiny shred of sovreignty that remains to any of the member nations. But we can't survive outside of it! No, no, no, noo!!!! Britain would go under! We wouldn't be able to manage if we weren't members of the EU!
One has to wonder how the hell we managed for the 250 years that the UK existed before the bastard EU was born.
Oh yeah, we stole it all of everyone else.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Two time saving ideas came along next. Here in the US it’s not uncommon to see people using little keychain fobs to pay for gas and such at filling stations. One doesn’t need to fumble with a credit card, and all is simpler. The fob charges your account, and the account is paid off a pre-selected credit card. Invisible and simple.
An automaker added a fob that would unlock your cars doors once you got close to the car, and you could start the car with no key, just a button push so long as you carried the fob. Some people in LA and South Beach Florida loved the idea so much that they decided to have the fobs implanted in their bodies so they wouldn’t loose them, or have to ruin the lines of their clothing by having to carry keys at all. Sensing a market the automaker offered implantation of the chip as part of the purchase package. It seems to be working.
The credit card people saw this and figured that they could do this with their product also. Early testing shows that people like the idea of being able to carry their card without the card... Product rollout is progressing.
We've got "pay @ the pump" here, which involves inserting your card into the pump, through a slot. That gizmo you mentioned on the fobs hasn't reached us yet. I have a push-button key that alarms and locks my car, but not one that acts merely on proximity.
And yes won't it be wonderful with the new, all-purpose chip people! It will have all your medical records, your passport, driving license and bank details on it. Yay for us! Well that's the blurb from the selling campaign anyway. Personally, I'd rather have a pineapple violently inserted into my rectum, than have a chip inserted into my body. As time goes by though, it's going to be made maddeningly inconvenient for all us rebellious bastards who choose to turn it down. Just as pensioners in Britain have now been denied the right to have their pensions paid in cash, so people who choose to have normal passports, driving licenses and medical records will find things made so bloody inconvenient that they'll be under enormous pressure to accept the new line of "shit-on-a-chips".
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Some US clothing retailers seed their products with small chips that interact with in-store systems, and record when a customer comes in and exits (Matched by chip code number) to track purchases and buying habits.
You must love Big Brother, Winston. Look at how well he is looking after you.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
All these except LOJACK are passive chips. They are read by outside devices and simply act as keys that unlock things, provide info, or set off a database flag. Read only.
Hmmm. Time for some more of that
Ourobouros logic you love so well Myr.
If the idea was to confine a humanity with ever an increasing spiritual awakening and independence, that threatened to break free of it's cage; the implantation of a chip that controls everything from mood swings to how big their hard-on is, would be a pretty good goal. You know however that most of the people would fuck you off if you tried to force it on them, because they faught a war to keep themselves free from that shit. Several wars. So years before you can introduce the chips that can control anything and everything that happens in their bodies, you start to make the idea more palatable.
Hey guys, look at this freaky shit! I only have to walk near my car and it unlocks!
My Johnnie and Susie don't have to worry about perverts in the neighbourhood any more. We've had them chipped in their right hands and on their foreheads so we can track them wherever they go. Our kids can grow up safely and we don't have to worry.
Your documents on this chip folks! Never lose your passport again! It activates your car! Pay at the till by sweeping your hand under the reader! Never die in a horrible traffic accident because the paramedics will be able to read your medical records on it!
Will make a cop's life a cynch! On the other hand, maybe I should refer to the quote Sylvester Stallone made in Demolition Man.
"We worked for a living. This fascist crap makes me wanna puke!"
We are heading full-tilt towards the soceity we saw in Demolition Man. All humans nice and passive, linked to that friendly central computer. No danger to anyone. Right now, we're living in the society that's depicted in the Stephen King/Richard Bachman novel,
The Running Man. Hysterical rhetoric that sounds like complete bollocks to the reader, has the multitudes baying and howling. Dopey fucks like Ben Richards are offered as Public Enemy #1 and the gullible wankers believe all they're told. Killian doesn't lie! He's a respeced TV personality! (Anyone interested in my subject matter should read this book, to see what I'm talking about. It's very different from the Arnold Schwartzenegger film.) The reason we're living in this society, is because the Doctor Carteaux society from Demolition Man is going to be offered as the solution. A solution we'd have rejected outright if we'd been offered it from the start, because it's fucking fascist. So they give us a taste of the Running Man to start with, so we'll demand they give us Demolition Man; the thing that was their plan from the start. It's a method I describe in these threads as "problem-reaction-solution". (A phrase I blatantly ripped off from a real author.
😀) You create a problem to stimulate a reaction from the public. They demand the solution that you wanted to introduce in the first place, but knew they would fight against because it sucks shit for them.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
The cybernetics you speak of are possible in theory. We’ve learned how to stimulate brain areas to produce effect. We have made major strides in neural machine interface allowing for limited control of equipment linked to nerves, and even producing a faux form of vision for the blind through direct connection of equipment to the optic nerves. On board insulin systems that are implanted, monitor blood sugar and can add insulin as needed to keep the host’s body working correctly.
So yes. Once could probably manage to ‘addict’ people via some form of electrical manipulation via chips. But this is akin to writing a message on a laptop and leaving it behind as a post-it note for a friend. Sure it does the job, but there are far more effective ways to addict people to things. Chemicals are plentiful and cheep and work quite well. And they are very easy to introduce to a single target or a mass population with little effort.
Ummm, I wasn't meaning that the masses would be addicted to these things to control them. The instance I meant was a one-off when a top CIA scientist who was working on gamma technology, rebelled against his bosses, because he didn't approve of their utilisation of his work. (They were using it to kill people through the manipulation of the body's magnetic field, instead of using it to produce huge crop growth in the desert, like he'd originally intended.) He was kidnapped one morning and woke up to discover a plastic sachet attached to his chest, filled with strange liquid. They'd manipulated his body to need this stuff, which needs to be replaced every 3 days or so. If he didn't keep working for them, he would die and end up as Jimmy Hoffa's gravemate. If he kept working, they'd keep him supplied with patches.
Ourobouros time again!!!
Chemicals have worked well for centuries. Drugs both legal and illegal have corrupted human health and lowered cerebral conduction. (Which is probably the reason why the Bush family loves it's frigging cocaine industry so much.) But humanity has been growing beyond the capacity of the manipulators to contain with fluoride, and all the rest of the crap. Even people who are evolving into the next stages of humankind's evolution and are regularly dosed with ritalin, prozac and other shit to keep them "normal", are outstripping the pharmeceutical's capacity to keep them docile and brain-dead. (Which is not to suggest that all people on drugs like this are budding Einstein's or the next Jesus Christ, but I suspect more than a few are.) Quite frankly, "they're" getting desperate and they're pulling shit that was never needed before. More wars are being created to scare people into wanting more world organisations, and more drugs are on the streets to fuck up bodies than ever before; but still the spiritual revolution has outpaced them since the mid-60's. So desperate times call for desperate measures and ever more sophisticated methods of control. Simple self-destructiveness that has poisoned the body and fuelled the tax coffers, isn't working well enough any more.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Mind control is a difficult business, and is not going to be happening in any realistic easy way until the above mentioned Nanotech is working, and working on quite a high level. It’s also rather needless. People are more then willing to do things for far more trivial and base reasons.
Difficult? It's frigging easy as pissing on a nettle! You're absoloutely correct about the right level of technology being here yet, which is why we're being sold on the idea now. (And the snake just keeps on swallowing, doesn't he?) Right now people are pretty easy to turn into automatons who'll believe complete lies on CNN bulletins and in newspapaers, but more and more people are challenging the system than ever before. The evidence of that is the increased amount of people who protest openly at things like the recent invasion of Iraq, and the ever more desperate levels of psychological fascism that are being used to keep their influence in check. (Mass public humilations and villifications of people who dare to oppose the party line.) The rabble are getting too difficult to control effectively and their numbers grow with each passing week.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
We’ve managed to store data on an atom using it’s electron shell as registers. So small is very small. And that’s the sort of stuff that will make Nanotech work. Such things are totally impractical right now but point the way toward where we will be.
Smaller than the brain of a communist.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
The image you saw, (a rather famous one) was of a cutting edge microchip for the time. MICROtech is the technology that rides just above Nanotech in the size game. And we are doing quite well with it. In fact we are getting to the Micro/Nano border in chip fabrication. It’s a race to the bottom. Smaller is better. It takes less energy to run, and can compute faster.
Exactly my point. That was years ago and that was just what the public were
allowed to see! The fantasy stuff of
Metal Gear Solid is rapidly nearing being a feasible reality.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Injectable chips exist. Have for a few years. We passed that size issue a bit back, they can’t do all that much though except hold data. Passive markers at best.
Yup, I know. I've written about them in at least two other threads.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Is he in a cave? Or by a phone in Pakistan? Perhaps a nice home in Kenya? Easy to direct things with a Satphone and the web from there. And even if he’s not, it’s not possible to block all wireless communications over large areas for long periods. It eats too much power, and it shows, very publicly.
VERY VERY publicly. And has done. I must say this guy gets round bloody well for a pensioner with no kidneys.
😀
Osama to me, is a white elephant. He's to Dubya and Blergh what Snowball was to Napoloeon the pig. A resource who was funded, armed and provided for in the past, but is now more useful to scare childr... err sorry; to scare the public to sleep with at nights. Don't you misbehave and contradict the President now, or Osama will come and get you! What the hell do you mean you don't want me to trample your civil liberties trampled in the gutter, we're trying to protect you against the nasty terrorists! What do you mean you don't want to be implanted with a chip? It'll help us fight terrorism and keep the bombs away from your children's school. Surely comrades, you don't want Jones to come back???
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
But then all that us not needed, high tech is not the only path for commanding an operation that has more to due with long term planning and time tables. One sets things up, gets all ready, then knocks over the first domino to set it in motion. If all is properly done, no further commands are needed. The plan self executes, and things happen (or not, if the plan is blocked) With enough time and work massive results will lever off that first little push. Even if that push comes in the form of a low tech paper letter delivered in the post.
But he's apparently not only the el jefe behind 9/11, but a continuing campaign. To be honest, if the official version about al-Qaeda is true (which at best it only about 10% is, i-m-h-o) then Osama is nothing more than a figurehead. 9/11 would have taken years to plan. The most he could have done as the head of the organisation of suicidal nutters, is give his blessing. His image is being used as a troll, nothing more. And that's accepting the official version of events as TRUE! Which obviously, I don't.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
This is an example of the circular ‘eats it’s own tale’ logic that comes to play in arguing material like this.
Information is presented that disputes George’s fealty to ‘Them’ based on historical record and facts about why his titles were such as they were. It’s discarded because the context of the history is considered as wrong in some form. Why is it wrong? Because ‘They’ had a hand in something larger that came before, and the fact means more (or less) then it would based on this action. It needs to placed in a bigger level of the ‘secret grand scheme’ to be understood. There is always another layer to explain why the layer above is ‘not quite right’ because all is based on the next level and the one below that and so on. There is no bottom.
To be honest Myr, your logic trying to pigeon-hole faiths etc is nothing different, to what you say mine is. All your points about people trying to find levels of order in the chaotic stream of sputum, are all reliant on a base with layers of vague theory on top. At least my theories have strong evidence supporting them. All yours have in support is that they sound like a possibly correct analysis.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
This is at it’s core a deterministic view of history. Things happen because someone has decided that they should and has allowed it. Everything is gathered together and connected as needed to serve this planned historical progress.
Not everything; not beyond the "cause and effect" style of karma anyway. (If one believes in karma.) I havn't talked about "everything", only certain events. Important events to be sure, but nevertheless...
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
History as it happens is not neat and tidy. Cause and effect are not predictable in historical terms when one is in the moment. It’s easy in hindsight, but not in the Now. Adding or removing a player may produce the desired effect, or.... It may not, or.... It may produce the desired effect and a undesired one, or.... It may do nothing.
You been smoking Hals' Amsterdam Old Hoburn again Myr?
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
And I’m an exceptionally lazy man. Thus a lazy choice.
I noticed.
😎
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
The only way to argue a liquid world view that has the quicksilver qualities of this one, is to find a container to place it in to give it some form. I chose a jug labeled ‘faith’ simply because it was handy, and proceeded to use that jug as the basis to get some handle on the argument, for there is no disputing the changeling layers of information that will always sift through ones hands (because it’s the nature of the theory to do so, it’s circularly defending) Perhaps this jug is the wrong choice. There are others. Perhaps the correct one is ‘Purpose’.
If your motivation is to seek structure from something that seems horribly disorganised, then that sounds suitably logical. Mine isn't though, and I think you might be surprised at how few fit your hypothesis.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
Ok, if these world views are not there as a way to find some form of order in the world for you, then what are they for? Why do they matter? Why invest in them, and in the teaching of them? What is the core purpose? Why spend ones Will here?
Who cares? I certainly don't. I don't go looking for questions. I go looking for answers to questions that throw themselves, barefoot and ticklish, at me.
To answer one question though, I invest time in this because I think it's a worthwhile thing to do. Once I've presented the information I discover, I have no control over what people do with it. Some will laugh till they cry, others will cry till they laugh. Most will call me a kook. Some will get angry with me, others treat me with an amused tolerance. Some will read what I say and decide that there just might be something worth pondering. What people do with it is up to them. It's not my business, nor my right to insist that I'm right and they're wrong. (Contrary to what some people round here think I believe.)
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
No word is useless. It’s the interpretation of it that fails. If I knew that I was arguing a close nit design where every word had weight, and may be questioned, I would have picked a different word, but I figured that this was a casual discussion to pass some time, much as one would in a pub over beverages.
You know my history with these threads, and my replies to your replies to thes threads, but thought I was being casual?
Sorry Myr. Seriously, I mean that genuinely. To me this is a lot more important than passing time. Hal suggested that I'm presenting it in the wrong medium, and I'm sure he's right. Maybe this crap will become my life's work and discussing it here is just what fate has slung my way to cut my teeth. For what it's worth, I value the TMF as more than just a cabal of like-minded pervy gits, who share my inclinations to torture ticklish females beyond the limits of their endurance. (Especially after a pint or two.) It's full of people of massively diverse opinions and origins. 99.999999999% of them are unbelievably cool people. The ones like Steve and Jimblast whose politics are chalk and cheese to mine, are still brilliant guys who I like to chat with about less serious things. I like getting the people's feedback and thoughts; ESPECIALLY if they're different from mine. Only talking to people who agree with me is no good at all. (Although it comes as a welcome change when I do find one to talk to.
😉) Now if only I could learn how to be concise my life would be complete... Some bloody hope. lol
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
But to defend the concept lost to the always. I never said the people were weak of will, or that people who chose this path were wrong or worse for doing so. I think that they are mistaken, but it’s their call to make. I’ll not dispute that, or question it. Faith is a powerful tool, and I mock none who hold it in all it’s many forms.
I never meant to suggest you meant people were weak-willed, I mentioned that condition as an example of what makes some people turn to faith. I didn't mean to make an inference about you.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
The Jug I chose guided my argument. Faiths are shields against the unknown, the fearful, the chaotic. They are tools of strength agglomeration, will focus, and self control. They aid the individual in their exploration and creation of their world. But as a tool they are limited by the wielders skill. They can be dangerous if misused or misapplied.
That's why I love my faith; because it doesn't exist and is totally open to the chaotic and disorderly. I don't put a name to my beliefs, because once you name something, you limit what it can be. MY beliefs are changing and evolving always, and I'm pretty sure they'll always continue to. It's because of this that I don't even like to use the word "faith" as descriptive of my belief system, because of it's limiting connotations. The way I see it, there's nothing between me and "shit happens", but me and my resources.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
I’m sticking to the faith I have chosen to use to contain yours. A handy jug, as I said. I never said I hold that faith in my heart now did I? I pick up tools to aid me with tasks I encounter.
If all tools are connected and intrinsicly linked to all the other tools, it makes any task a shed-load easier.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
And No, I’ve not provided specific ‘facts’ to argue most of the point you raise for a few reasons. Many of the points are not arguable from that direction. They are based on speculation and opinion. I have no clue as to what’s in NORAD’s mountain. I have an idea what MAY NOT be based on other things that I know, but that’s opinion (interpretation at best) also. The rest is the sort of thing that results in the problems I spoke of in the George part of the post. The theory slides about counter-evidence, so the time spent in chasing it is pretty pointless. I argued the Geroge point simply because I had the facts in my head based on recent historical research. It was easy. And as we noted above I’m Lazy.
Hey, it's cool to be lazy. I never meant to sound like I was insisting you get all the historical nots in front of you. I suggested some decent background certainly, but wouldn't presume to sound instructive.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
People tend to believe what fits into the worldview they hold. We look to the familiar for answers before we move on to the strange. And we do this for good reason, because it works. The simple is frequently (dare I say almost always?) the answer. Complexity is not the first answer that we turn to for ‘why’ because in many cases it’s because the cause is simple.
Occam's Razor.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
And so are we all.
We are? Shit.
🙁
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
I’m not that intelligent. I’m simply good at organizing things very quickly. It makes one look a lot better then one is. As far as being a Psycho-analyst, I never did finish that PhD in Psychology. Came close though. I speak in generalities for the reasons discussed above. As a way to grab the argument.
Same here, but without the doing it quickly bit.
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
The faith I embrace when arguing this idea is Chaos Universe based. A tool. But just that. I like it, and am comfortable with it (It’s a very flexible tool, and who doesn’t like bendy things?), but I could have as easily chosen predestination, luck, or several other faiths to argue the points I wanted to make. What I may or may not believe rarely matches the tools I argue with.
At this point, my eyes are shutting down and my anus has healed over. I do want to talk about this, but am incapable after the energy I've expended in the last few hours. (Pissing brackets!
😀)
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
And yes a chaotic universe outlook is just another form of faith for dealing with the experience of experience. It’s a non-faith, and just as many things contain their opposites, non faiths become faiths through their lack of rules and structures. One can define with a void just as well with a structure.
Possibly you may be closer to my philosophy than either of us realised. That comes in the last thread of this series though. (Which has now been put back to #6, with this thread coming intwo parts. Will we last the pace I wond...... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)
Originally posted by His Myr-ness
As to length, well, costs always must be paid by those who summon, no? 🙂
Myriads
You usurious bugger.
Okay, time for coma. It's 3 in the morning and I havn't a fucking clue what I just typed. I hope it bears some resemblance to English.
Jim - Who's just gone through the zone, where normal things don't happen very often. (And he ran into some blonde knobber who kept going "Huu haa huh!" all the time.)
